25 Years Ago Today. The Poll Tax Riots.

[wellquickwoody]

At the time I was massively in favour of the protest, and probably smirked at the damage done to London and the Tories (never a Thatcher fan).

With the benefit of hindsight I would say the Poll Tax (or the Community Charge to give it the proper name) was probably a great improvement on the old rates system, and on the current Council Tax. Really the protest was about millions of freeloaders who did not want to pay a new tax and would rather their parents carried on paying it for them, bit like now really.

 

[mikeyjh]

We don't do civil disobedience very well in this country, so should all be very proud of the anti poll tax campaign. Directly led to the end of the Witch and an abolition of a flagship policy. Shows what people can do of they are united.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

I was in London that day, we didnt realise things had gone tits up .First i knew that things were going to crap was much later when i was in French Connection Covent Garden with my sister, a sizeable group turned up smashed all the windows then ran off to be swiftly followed by another sizeable group who looted the place of its goods. I remember thinking they are going to hate those clothes they are stealing as none of them smell like dogshat ,dope ,dead spunk or purile anarchy.They did seem happy and content though that they were finally sticking it to "the man" and robbing a shop of some T shirts and skirts........power to the people!

Funny isn't it how a protest against the state turns into theft and vandalism against the private sector ( the lifeblood of this country )

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Political suicide by Mrs T, although as Kinnock led Labour they still failed to oust the Tories at the next election which was a massive cock up.

Say thank you to the Sun newspaper for that.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

[MENTION=5729]sir albion[/MENTION]

I have a slightly different view. Friedrich Engels, in 'The Condition of the Working Class in England', once said that the English, often seen as cowardly on the continent, have been in quiet revolution for centuries, rather than short violent episodes. 150 years later, I agree. We just do things differently. The Poll Tax Riots were a departure, simply because they signaled sudden, and huge, socially economic regression.

I think we are in a permanent state of protest and revolution in this country. Those who oversee us are afraid of what we a capable of, more than what we actually do. That's why the end of World War II saw the birth of the modern welfare state.

We currently seem to be sleepwalking toward the death of that welfare state

 

[Gwylan]

With the benefit of hindsight I would say the Poll Tax (or the Community Charge to give it the proper name) was probably a great improvement on the old rates system, and on the current Council Tax. Really the protest was about millions of freeloaders who did not want to pay a new tax and would rather their parents carried on paying it for them, bit like now really.

While the rioters were all young. there were more than a million people on that demo: young, old and middle-aged.

At the time I was in my mid-30s, running a small business with all the responsibilities that entailed. Personally, I was better off under the poll tax as it was lower than my rates but that wasn't the point: it was a completely unfair tax - as admitted by many Conservative ministers later - and one that many people would have found difficult to pay.

I agree with Westdene Seagull that a local income tax, such as they have in France, would be better but that seems to be anathema to politicians here. The council tax is not perfect but it's far better than the poll tax was.

I'm glad that I marched against it and I'm glad that I'm one of the very many voices that called for its abolition. It was about fairness for all and not a call for a freeloaders charter - even if that's how The Sun portrayed it

 

[Mo Gosfield]

We don't do civil disobedience very well in this country, so should all be very proud of the anti poll tax campaign. Directly led to the end of the Witch and an abolition of a flagship policy. Shows what people can do of they are united.

As you get older in life ( 50+ ) you start to wise up and realise that no matter what you think or do, you won't change anything. When I was in my teens and early 20's, we all wanted to change the world, rip it up and start again. But gradually life takes over, relationships develop, family life blossoms, building a career, raising kids, paying bills. You become insular. Everything revolves around you and your immediate family. People care less about the country and more about themselves. Sod the rest, I'm alright Jack etc.
We aren't united in this country. We only think about ourselves. Envy and selfishness abounds. The younger generation don't sit and think and contemplate anymore. They don't create time for that anymore. They bombard each other with digital messages, saying ' hi ' or ' hey ' and spend hours chatting online about everyday triviality.
Big brother controls us. They always have. There is a cabal in place. A faction of power behind the obvious. They control and pull the strings. The three main groups...1) political 2) finance 3) judiciary / legal all work together, to help each other. A massive masonic lodge of state assisted wealth. They always have an agenda in place to help each other. An open door immigration policy under Blairs Labour was planned. They wanted to create a larger potential voting base for themselves and they wanted to create enough work for the legal system, to enable them to make millions for years to come. ( Just work out who had a legal background in politics at that time...wives included! )
As I said, you get older and wiser. You realise that politicians can't and won't change anything. They pay lip service to the most important sector in this country...SME's....and continue to bleed them dry and bog them down with beaurocracy. They do nothing to curb the size of the state and fail to address the most important issues. Taxation, fuel, energy, immigration ( controlled ), the EEC, banking, health and education. Its just tinkering around the edges. They aren't business people. They are career civil servants. They can't balance the books. They just borrow, borrow, borrow.
Apathy rules in middle England and the poll tax campaign is just a tiny distant blip. Civil disorder on the streets only brings morons out of their homes, looking for a chance to loot.
As a nation we are strangled to the point of futility. We have spent centuries believing that we are some sort of master race, who show the rest of the world how its done, when in truth, we allow ourselves to be controlled by a corrupt elite, who have no interest in the welfare of those lower down the chain, just the perpetuation of their own private members club.

 

[Norman Baker suck my lozenge]

Yep - Big experience in my life, Thatcher tried to use the police as her personal enforcers again, this time though they got more than they bargained for and it was the beginning of the end for the witch. Memorable.

Does this include the police horse that was beaten to death with a scaffold pole?He certainly got more than he bargained for.

 

[mikeyjh]

Does this include the police horse that was beaten to death with a scaffold pole?He certainly got more than he bargained for.

I guess so - It was the police that took the horse in to a volatile situation and them that have to take responsibility for the horse. I do hope they ate afterwards though*

* If this actually happened, which I doubt.

 

[Norman Baker suck my lozenge]

I guess so - It was the police that took the horse in to a volatile situation and them that have to take responsibility for the horse. I do hope they ate afterwards though*

* If this actually happened, which I doubt.

Off course it didn't happen,wouldn't fit into the "pride" of the occasion would it?

 

[mikeyjh]

Off course it didn't happen,wouldn't fit into the "pride" of the occasion would it?

Did it happen?

 

[Norman Baker suck my lozenge]

The horse that was belted with a scaffold pole across the legs later had to be put to sleep,was all for a good cause though eh?
Can't pay,won't pay.

 

[alfredmizen]

At the time I was massively in favour of the protest, and probably smirked at the damage done to London and the Tories (never a Thatcher fan).

With the benefit of hindsight I would say the Poll Tax (or the Community Charge to give it the proper name) was probably a great improvement on the old rates system, and on the current Council Tax. Really the protest was about millions of freeloaders who did not want to pay a new tax and would rather their parents carried on paying it for them, bit like now really.

This ^^^^ 100%

 

[Notters]

I guess that shows that a local income tax might be the 'fairest' type of local tax ? My point was really that property value is so arbitrary and doesn't take any account of the ability to actually pay. That and it doesn't cost any extra to collect the rubbish from a £2m house than it does a £200k house for example.

Isn't it based in the value in 1991 as well?

 

[Diego Napier]

As you get older in life ( 50+ ) you start to wise up and realise that no matter what you think or do, you won't change anything. When I was in my teens and early 20's, we all wanted to change the world, rip it up and start again. But gradually life takes over, relationships develop, family life blossoms, building a career, raising kids, paying bills. You become insular. Everything revolves around you and your immediate family. People care less about the country and more about themselves. Sod the rest, I'm alright Jack etc.
We aren't united in this country. We only think about ourselves. Envy and selfishness abounds. The younger generation don't sit and think and contemplate anymore. They don't create time for that anymore. They bombard each other with digital messages, saying ' hi ' or ' hey ' and spend hours chatting online about everyday triviality.
Big brother controls us. They always have. There is a cabal in place. A faction of power behind the obvious. They control and pull the strings. The three main groups...1) political 2) finance 3) judiciary / legal all work together, to help each other. A massive masonic lodge of state assisted wealth. They always have an agenda in place to help each other. An open door immigration policy under Blairs Labour was planned. They wanted to create a larger potential voting base for themselves and they wanted to create enough work for the legal system, to enable them to make millions for years to come. ( Just work out who had a legal background in politics at that time...wives included! )
As I said, you get older and wiser. You realise that politicians can't and won't change anything. They pay lip service to the most important sector in this country...SME's....and continue to bleed them dry and bog them down with beaurocracy. They do nothing to curb the size of the state and fail to address the most important issues. Taxation, fuel, energy, immigration ( controlled ), the EEC, banking, health and education. Its just tinkering around the edges. They aren't business people. They are career civil servants. They can't balance the books. They just borrow, borrow, borrow.
Apathy rules in middle England and the poll tax campaign is just a tiny distant blip. Civil disorder on the streets only brings morons out of their homes, looking for a chance to loot.
As a nation we are strangled to the point of futility. We have spent centuries believing that we are some sort of master race, who show the rest of the world how its done, when in truth, we allow ourselves to be controlled by a corrupt elite, who have no interest in the welfare of those lower down the chain, just the perpetuation of their own private members club.

Wow, a bit grandiose for NSC but I admire your style and most of your sentiments, if not your pessimism!

 

[father_and_son]

At the time I was massively in favour of the protest, and probably smirked at the damage done to London and the Tories (never a Thatcher fan).

With the benefit of hindsight I would say the Poll Tax (or the Community Charge to give it the proper name) was probably a great improvement on the old rates system, and on the current Council Tax. Really the protest was about millions of freeloaders who did not want to pay a new tax and would rather their parents carried on paying it for them, bit like now really.

Even as a student at the time, who benefited from the change from Community Charge to Council Tax, I still felt that it was the closest to a fair system assuming that you agree with local councils being allowed to tax you again out of your already taxed earnings. Everybody uses the services/amenities, so everyone pays. I think money should come from gross earnings, not net and collected once with income tax, thus not needing to employ another army of people at public expense to manage its collection - but do agree with the principle of every adult paying.

 

[Eeyore]

This is a good post, but I disagree with the pessimistic sentiment. I feel you are reflecting on a disappointment you have that your generation wasn't the one that could change things.

For a revolution to occur, the conditions need to be right. It does feel as if we are edging closer, as the problems you describe persist and inequality continues to increase at an alarming rate.

One unprecedented variable that has been key to 21st century uprisings all around the world is social media. Ideas and movements spread like wildfire. I believe that we are one major event or wave of discontentment away from a revolution.

England has been in a state of permanent revolution for 300 years. We just do things differently.

A look at our social history shows this. But as I said, the Poll Tax riots were a departure. This was because the tax was so retrograde, and far reaching in its implications, on the more balanced distribution of wealth that had been evolving since WWII.

We've never had a bloody revolution before. I don't think we ever will. It's not our way.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Thatcher is to blame for the rise of the SNP in Scotland , not the best of ideas to trial it north of the border to gauge reaction to it.

 

[BLOCK F]

As you get older in life ( 50+ ) you start to wise up and realise that no matter what you think or do, you won't change anything. When I was in my teens and early 20's, we all wanted to change the world, rip it up and start again. But gradually life takes over, relationships develop, family life blossoms, building a career, raising kids, paying bills. You become insular. Everything revolves around you and your immediate family. People care less about the country and more about themselves. Sod the rest, I'm alright Jack etc.
We aren't united in this country. We only think about ourselves. Envy and selfishness abounds. The younger generation don't sit and think and contemplate anymore. They don't create time for that anymore. They bombard each other with digital messages, saying ' hi ' or ' hey ' and spend hours chatting online about everyday triviality.
Big brother controls us. They always have. There is a cabal in place. A faction of power behind the obvious. They control and pull the strings. The three main groups...1) political 2) finance 3) judiciary / legal all work together, to help each other. A massive masonic lodge of state assisted wealth. They always have an agenda in place to help each other. An open door immigration policy under Blairs Labour was planned. They wanted to create a larger potential voting base for themselves and they wanted to create enough work for the legal system, to enable them to make millions for years to come. ( Just work out who had a legal background in politics at that time...wives included! )
As I said, you get older and wiser. You realise that politicians can't and won't change anything. They pay lip service to the most important sector in this country...SME's....and continue to bleed them dry and bog them down with beaurocracy. They do nothing to curb the size of the state and fail to address the most important issues. Taxation, fuel, energy, immigration ( controlled ), the EEC, banking, health and education. Its just tinkering around the edges. They aren't business people. They are career civil servants. They can't balance the books. They just borrow, borrow, borrow.
Apathy rules in middle England and the poll tax campaign is just a tiny distant blip. Civil disorder on the streets only brings morons out of their homes, looking for a chance to loot.
As a nation we are strangled to the point of futility. We have spent centuries believing that we are some sort of master race, who show the rest of the world how its done, when in truth, we allow ourselves to be controlled by a corrupt elite, who have no interest in the welfare of those lower down the chain, just the perpetuation of their own private members club.

Mo, sit down and have a nice cup of tea or take some happy pills.
There are far worse places in the world to live than Britain whatever one's political persuasion and whichever party is in power.
Look back at social history,despite an imperfect world,we have come quite a long way in a pretty short time.....................I certainly wouldn't have fancied living in Victorian times,let alone 500 years ago. It isn't perfect,but it ain't all bad either.

 

[glasfryn]

I was there all right. I remember the sight when we walked into Kennington Park and saw the crowds of people for the first time.

Most of all, I remember the first speaker: the secretary of the London anti-poll tax campaign, a feisty woman who got the crowd fired up. I remember thinking to myself, I bet she'd be a bit of a handful....

We've been together nearly 15 years now and she's not, she's really not

hilarious, we are both laughing best post this week