[News] 2030 and Electric cars.

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Was busy typing it all up in between work meetings. Completely forgot I hadn't finished that end bit.

Of course, I wrote all that and never mentioned (because Mr Bean didn't mention it) the other big myth: that EVs are more expensive. They're still more expensive up-front (although it's coming down as competition in the market builds), but for those who can afford to invest that up-front the "total cost of ownership" is already much lower. Although iirc the study I saw used a 7-year time period, and Mr Bean cites average ownership being 3 years (but that's via leasing, where the up-front investment is much reduced).

3 years back when I was researching my current EV (on a 4 year lease) I ran the sums. At the time I was commuting 4 days a week, 130 miles per day, using a 2016 Prius (via company car perk). My company had decided to stop facilitating company cars (due to govt changes in BIK tax) and instead give us a cash equivalent (PAYE taxed...). My Mrs was using a Ford Focus Ecoboom ... sorry, Ecoboost ... that with just 45k miles on the clock had already needed significant work done for free by Ford post warranty due to fundamental design flaws in the cooling system. So decision was made to buy out the Prius at end of contract (still have it today) as it was cleaner and more reliable than the Focus. And I ran the sums on private lease of an EV. Over 4 years, at the mileage I was doing at the time, the total cost of ownership of going EV was (just) lower than investing in ICE or hybrid.

That's something worth keeping in mind: the cost effectiveness (and environmental benefits) of choosing an EV over an ICE improves with the more miles you do. ICE continues to increase total GHG emissions with every mile driven at a far faster rate than an EV, especially in countries with a highly green electric grid. With EV's there's the sunk cost in production, but that means with every mile you do the GHG emissions "per mile" driven goes down rapidly.

You're right of course, but it's the up front money which in current economic times, not enough people have.

If I had £30k I would love an electric car and it would make economic sense for me to get it, but I don't have anything like that, so the fact that it's a good deal is a moot point

 

[Audax]

You're right of course, but it's the up front money which in current economic times, not enough people have.

If I had £30k I would love an electric car and it would make economic sense for me to get it, but I don't have anything like that, so the fact that it's a good deal is a moot point

Second hand market is starting to show signs it should take off in the next couple of years. When I did my first school run in the Zoe 2.5 years ago, there was 1 other EV being used. It's a small school. There's now multiple EVs across multiple brands and multiple styles. I see a lot more EVs on the road as well. It'll be safe to assume a lot of those are on 3-4 year leases, and when the leases end they'll be sent straight into the second hand market. I've started keeping an eye on the second hands recently, as my lease is up Sept next year and need to be making a decision early next year (given the long lead times on new cars at the moment). There's cars such as 2020 reg VW ID3's with low mileage for £22k-ish. Those prices will only come down as second hand supply goes up. 2020 reg Tesla Model 3's from a tickle under £25k. Zoe's of similar age and spec to mine are around £15k.

It's entirely possible my next EV will be a second hander. But that'll depend on what's available to lease new and what the costs are like when the time comes - no doubt my financial spreadsheets of doom will be dusted off to help make the decision.

 

[Horses Arse]

That is just not correct though.

People like to own cars. Electric cars is the next step.

Electric cars are here to provide transport for people. It is not about saving the car industry.

Public transport has limited convenince and cycling is a s**t way to get around.

The only thing that makes cycling a problem is the addiction to cars, particularly massive cars driven by bellends.

Cycling is a fantastic way to get around outside of cretins in cars/lorries,, buses (noting cretins on bikes too of course)

 

[chickens]

The only thing that makes cycling a problem is the addiction to cars, particularly massive cars driven by bellends.

Cycling is a fantastic way to get around outside of cretins in cars/lorries,, buses (noting cretins on bikes too of course)

Is cycling a fantastic way to get around? I’d say that cycling is a fantastic way to get around short/medium distances of fairly level ground in good weather. In adverse weather, over long distances, or over particularly hilly terrain it’s a bit of a ball ache, and requires a level of fitness that many (through age or injury) couldn’t achieve.

My memories of longer trips on a bike are of punctures, slipped chains and homicidal motorists. And this was all before the advent of the Lycra clad lunatics in Oakleys, who seem to regard the road as their race track, and are a menace to pedestrian life.

If we had a warm dry climate and level ground I’d agree re: cycling, but I don’t think it will ever be the answer to transport issues in large towns and cities on hilly ground and in cold/wet climates. Either we have joined up reliable public transport, or we have cars.

 

[Stat Brother]

Is cycling a fantastic way to get around? I’d say that cycling is a fantastic way to get around short/medium distances of fairly level ground in good weather. In adverse weather, over long distances, or over particularly hilly terrain it’s a bit of a ball ache, and requires a level of fitness that many (through age or injury) couldn’t achieve.

My memories of longer trips on a bike are of punctures, slipped chains and homicidal motorists. And this was all before the advent of the Lycra clad lunatics in Oakleys, who seem to regard the road as their race track, and are a menace to pedestrian life.

If we had a warm dry climate and level ground I’d agree re: cycling, but I don’t think it will ever be the answer to transport issues in large towns and cities on hilly ground and in cold/wet climates. Either we have joined up reliable public transport, or we have cars.

Just because you don't want to cycle, it doesn't mean people don't want to cycle.

 

[chickens]

Just because you don't want to cycle, it doesn't mean people don't want to cycle.

But the flip side of that, is that just because you want to cycle, doesn’t mean it’s an acceptable solution for everyone else.

 

[Stat Brother]

But the flip side of that, is that just because you want to cycle, doesn’t mean it’s an acceptable solution for everyone else.

You're the one being binary.

I just want the choice and for that choice to be safe.



I believe an unlimited public transport pass in Germany costs €44 a month.
Couple that with a £1000 folding electric bike and a safe cycling infrastructure and much of this debate goes away - but we can't have that, can we?


Oh and who benefits most from integrated transport infrastructure for all?
The remaining car drivers!

 

[chickens]

You're the one being binary.

I just want the choice and for that choice to be safe.



I believe an unlimited public transport pass in Germany costs €44 a month.
Couple that with a £1000 folding electric bike and a safe cycling infrastructure and much of this debate goes away - but we can't have that, can we?


Oh and who benefits most from integrated transport infrastructure for all?
The remaining car drivers!

I’m not certain I’m being binary, but I feel that local authorities have bent over backward to try and accommodate cyclists, and while not perfect, it’s certainly as good as it has ever been for cyclists in the U.K.

However, this has failed (in itself) to bring traffic down by any meaningful extent, and in places could even have worsened congestion and pollution by removing a usable road lane, meaning that queues are longer and each vehicle is spending longer in the same place. There’s no point halving emissions if you change traffic schemes so cars spend twice as long in the same spot.

I’m glad you enjoy cycling and I want you to be safe while doing so, but to claim it’s the answer to transport issues in towns and cities is just not true.

I would love us to have a joined up transport strategy with accessible public transport for all at a reasonable price, but until people have access to that, there’s no point trying to make life difficult for car drivers.

 

[Horses Arse]

Is cycling a fantastic way to get around? I’d say that cycling is a fantastic way to get around short/medium distances of fairly level ground in good weather. In adverse weather, over long distances, or over particularly hilly terrain it’s a bit of a ball ache, and requires a level of fitness that many (through age or injury) couldn’t achieve.

My memories of longer trips on a bike are of punctures, slipped chains and homicidal motorists. And this was all before the advent of the Lycra clad lunatics in Oakleys, who seem to regard the road as their race track, and are a menace to pedestrian life.

If we had a warm dry climate and level ground I’d agree re: cycling, but I don’t think it will ever be the answer to transport issues in large towns and cities on hilly ground and in cold/wet climates. Either we have joined up reliable public transport, or we have cars.

Weather is no issue when you're out in it. Hills and distance yes, which is where electric bikes are so good.

Rather than making huge unnecessary 2 tonne vehicles plus driver powered by electricity you just need to power 20kg plus rider. It's the way forward, without cars it would be a joy.

You'd still have the Oakley lycra wankers it's true, can't have everything I guess.

 

[Horses Arse]

I’m not certain I’m being binary, but I feel that local authorities have bent over backward to try and accommodate cyclists, and while not perfect, it’s certainly as good as it has ever been for cyclists in the U.K.

However, this has failed (in itself) to bring traffic down by any meaningful extent, and in places could even have worsened congestion and pollution by removing a usable road lane, meaning that queues are longer and each vehicle is spending longer in the same place. There’s no point halving emissions if you change traffic schemes so cars spend twice as long in the same spot.

I’m glad you enjoy cycling and I want you to be safe while doing so, but to claim it’s the answer to transport issues in towns and cities is just not true.

I would love us to have a joined up transport strategy with accessible public transport for all at a reasonable price, but until people have access to that, there’s no point trying to make life difficult for car drivers.

The cars prevent the joined up transport. Clearer roads mean effective buses and trams and then more interest in train journeys. Somethings got to give, and that has to be cars. Electric cars are not the answer to congestion nor environmental impact. Local air quality improvenent and economic growth the only benefit.

 

[chickens]

Weather is no issue when you're out in it. Hills and distance yes, which is where electric bikes are so good.

Rather than making huge unnecessary 2 tonne vehicles plus driver powered by electricity you just need to power 20kg plus rider. It's the way forward, without cars it would be a joy.

You'd still have the Oakley lycra wankers it's true, can't have everything I guess.

I agree electric bikes are definitely a step forward, but I know from my own family that weather is an issue for some. There are some who will go out in the rain happily in waterproof clothing, while others will stay indoors and refuse to move further than from front door to car door. We’re simply not going to get everyone out into any kind of ‘open air’ vehicle in the British climate, especially during the colder and wetter months.

Similarly there are huge swathes of the population for whom cycling is not a practical solution, through age or health. I agree that it’s frustrating seeing massive Range Rovers with a single occupant, but equally, for all we know the driver may be on their way to pick up their partner and their elderly parents. I don’t have a full answer, but I’m fairly certain that the car is going nowhere until it’s cheaper, as convenient and not significantly slower to make a journey via public transport than it is via car.

I remember BMW a while ago bringing out a strange looking scooter with a roof and (I think) a heating system and wondering if it would catch on. It didn’t (it looked a bit odd) and while I agree that the modern car is overkill for urban journeys, the alternative isn’t there that’s acceptable to a majority of people. There has to be something to switch to, and while bicycles/electric bicycles are suitable for some, they’re not going to replace cars for anyone for whom cycling isn’t appropriate, or who travels between towns for home/work. The person who solves this conundrum of mobility/freedom/convenience and image should be wealthy indeed. I just don’t think we’ve found it yet.

It’s usually around this point someone posts a picture of a Sinclair C5 or a Segway…

 

[worthingseagull123]

The only thing that makes cycling a problem is the addiction to cars, particularly massive cars driven by bellends.

Cycling is a fantastic way to get around outside of cretins in cars/lorries,, buses (noting cretins on bikes too of course)

Chosing to travel comfortably, quickly and conveniently in a car is an addiction?

It is all subjective. I loathe riding bikes and I’ll stick to driving distances whereby walking is not practical.

But if others want to ride their little bicycles, then good luck to them.

 

[worthingseagull123]

The cars prevent the joined up transport. Clearer roads mean effective buses and trams and then more interest in train journeys. Somethings got to give, and that has to be cars. Electric cars are not the answer to congestion nor environmental impact. Local air quality improvenent and economic growth the only benefit.

The trouble being of course that people are unwilling to give up owning cars.

 

[Stat Brother]

The trouble being of course that people are unwilling to give up owning cars.

And why should we when the alternative options are all third world at best.

Transportation in this country is a joke, a f**king expensive joke, and we're all the punchline.

 

[Horses Arse]

Chosing to travel comfortably, quickly and conveniently in a car is an addiction?

It is all subjective. I loathe riding bikes and I’ll stick to driving distances whereby walking is not practical.

But if others want to ride their little bicycles, then good luck to them.

Perhaps addiction is the wrong term. Obsession is a better term I think.

Walking and cycling need to be promoted, celebrated and rewarded. Selfish car use restricted and shamed for the benefit of all. A bit like banning smoking indoors in pubs. Unbelievable that was accepted not so long ago.

 

[worthingseagull123]

Perhaps addiction is the wrong term. Obsession is a better term I think.

Walking and cycling need to be promoted, celebrated and rewarded. Selfish car use restricted and shamed for the benefit of all. A bit like banning smoking indoors in pubs. Unbelievable that was accepted not so long ago.

Obsessed with travelling quickly, comfortably and conveniently?

Using a car to achieve the above is an obsession?

As for being selfish, I suspect most will disagree with car use being considered selfish.

 

[BN41Albion]

Electric cars are well and good but until they can find a way to safely dispose of the battery it seems somewhat counterproductive. Whilst an important step in the right direction, the infrastructure needs to be in place as well as advances in technology so long trips aren’t extended by potentially a few hours due to the need to charge the battery.

Yep - same with recycling... studies starting to show that the process of recycling currently does more harm to the environment than not bothering too depressing stuff

 

[virtual22]

This is worth a watch if you want to consider the CO2 effects of the different options available at the moment

Probably not what some people want to hear though.

 

[Bodian]

Is cycling a fantastic way to get around? I’d say that cycling is a fantastic way to get around short/medium distances of fairly level ground in good weather. In adverse weather, over long distances, or over particularly hilly terrain it’s a bit of a ball ache, and requires a level of fitness that many (through age or injury) couldn’t achieve.

My memories of longer trips on a bike are of punctures, slipped chains and homicidal motorists. And this was all before the advent of the Lycra clad lunatics in Oakleys, who seem to regard the road as their race track, and are a menace to pedestrian life.

If we had a warm dry climate and level ground I’d agree re: cycling, but I don’t think it will ever be the answer to transport issues in large towns and cities on hilly ground and in cold/wet climates. Either we have joined up reliable public transport, or we have cars.

e-bikes definitely the way. Hills not an issue, and you can go fully waterproofed up. OK, not great 100% of the time, but for those times, you use the car. Done around 3,000 miles on journeys to and from work now - all of which would previously have been in the car.

Yep - same with recycling... studies starting to show that the process of recycling currently does more harm to the environment than not bothering too depressing stuff

About 20 years ago I was friends with our District Council's recycling officer. She told me that the best thing to do with cardboard and paper was not to recycle it, but to light the stove with it.

 

[Horses Arse]

Obsessed with travelling quickly, comfortably and conveniently?

Using a car to achieve the above is an obsession?

As for being selfish, I suspect most will disagree with car use being considered selfish.

Oh it is when used unnecessarily - no doubt about it.

I'm not saying I'm not guilty of it. Two cars in my family, living in London. Bloody ridiculous really. I try to be good and cycle when car journeys are unnecessary but I, like most others, are bloody lazy and selfish at times.

Selfish filling roads with traffic and making roads more dangerous as a result.

One place of work I can get to as quickly using bike/train as using the car when there's no traffic. When there's traffic the car can take 2 or 3 times as long. Yet I drive more frequently than I cycle/train. Why? There's no logical reason. Ridiculous.

Obsessed with car travel as a 1st choice. Its ingrained.