2017 Manchester arena attack

[East Preston Gull]

You're as backward as those you despise.

Maybe I am, but thanks for sharing your speech. Bury your head in the sand if you wish but the forward thinking sages like yourself have failed this country.


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[BBassic]

I see it didn't take long for this thread to degenerate to the norm.

I knew it would, despite my plea for it not to.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Islam, a far right ideology that gets attacked mostly by those on the right and gets defended most fervently by the left.

If it wasn't so serious it would be comical.

 

[beorhthelm]

That would be fair enough if the moderate Muslims had any influence over those that indulge in violence, but unfortunately they don't.

some do, there will be respected leaders, that know or suspect of problem people, but turn a blind eye or try unsuccessfully to intervene. the time has come for the normal Muslim to tell the extremist they wont be tolerated in the community anymore. the message from the leaders and imams must be, they come here for the benefits that western liberal democracies provide - jobs, freedom, lack of persecution. if they dont accept them, they can find another nation more suited to their fundamentalist ideas. thats the way forward, to help and encourage the muslims to purge their own community. the consequneces if they dont is obvious, because in the end we arent as a nation going to accept it forever and we do generally win.

 

[Triggaaar]

I totally agree with you. It just goes to show how out of touch with reality this government is.

You're an idiot.

 

[Questions]

I understand different cultures have brought many good things to Western Nations. I however cannot think of one thing this backwards shitfull ideology has brought to the west which has made those nations better for having it part of the native culture.

The Islamic world has contributed next to nothing to the scientific world for a thousand years.

What the **** does it offer any other nation with its presence?

So my doctor who is Muslim has to answer for the Islamic worlds lack of scientific contributions over the last one thousand years. For f.ucks sake always always stay in Australia mate.

 

[pigbite]

There has been a logical progression of secularisation across Europe and other parts of the world but I just cannot see how it would work amongst the Islamic faith, one or two will turn their back on the faith but for the vast majoirty that seems an impossible task.

The problem here is two fold. Firstly, as pointed out by another poster, Islam lacks a handful of influential leaders with global reach. Secondly, and more critically I think, there is still an essentially "cult" culture at ground level. I mean this in the sense that there is immense social and family pressure to conform to a set of beliefs and morals. Those that do not follow an acceptable level of adherence are treated as apostates and face shunning and other social behaviours that punish alternative thinking.

Of course this is not true in every Muslim household and there are degrees of intensity here but in general it's not easy to promote a different message if your friends and family are more fundamental in their outlook. The same is true in many smaller sects of Christianity where shunning and exclusion are used as social control mechanisms to discourage what is perceived as dissent.

My point is that this is where we were at as a nation as recently as 60, 70 years ago. The social stigma associated with certain situations like being a single mother, living together outside of marriage, being anything other than straight etc. etc. was still very great. The past 40-50 or so years have seen a great change with these "Christian" values challenged and pushed to being a irrelevance for most.

I really believe that there needs to be concerted effort by those progressive and truly moderate Muslims to promote some of the same change in attitiude. The hard battle is that for many they really don't seem to want to change and use some of the issues that our permissive and secular culture has as a direct argument for doing nothing.

 

[GT49er]

You think this is what all Muslims want. You're wrong GT. I don't know where you're getting your ideas from (the Mail?), but you're simply wrong. By the way, how many Muslim countries operate Sharia Law?

And remember, homosexuality was a crime here not long ago.

This may surprise - and even shock you - but not every person who disagrees with you reads the Daily Mail. And you really need to stop reading things into posts that aren't there when it suits you. Try finding the word 'all' in my post - no, you can't, but you're quite prepared to say that that is what I said.

 

[East Preston Gull]

Indeed. I mentioned this a few pages back. The likes of this poster, along with their media and political brethren like Katie Hopkins and Tommy Robinson, are being played like a cheap violin. Astonishing that they continue to react EXACTLY how their enemies want them to.



I don't think you needed to make the explicit comparison. I think the suggestion that 'all mosques should be bulldozed' pretty much illustrated that particular point.

Played like a cheap violin, falling into the trap of the hate filled media.
Maybe we have, but still people are dying and we go through these arguments. Doing nothing is killing innocent people.
Stop mocking and come up with a liberal, progressive solution.

People like me have our views and are mocked by the great and the good.
Not one of you can offer any end to it but can titter amongst yourselves about our thicko ignorance.

Great job

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[The Large One]

I understand different cultures have brought many good things to Western Nations. I however cannot think of one thing this backwards shitfull ideology has brought to the west which has made those nations better for having it part of the native culture.

The Islamic world has contributed next to nothing to the scientific world for a thousand years.

What the **** does it offer any other nation with its presence?

A thousand years, you say...?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

So my doctor who is Muslim has to answer for the Islamic worlds lack of scientific contributions over the last one thousand years. For f.ucks sake always always stay in Australia mate.

Not at all. One can rip the shit out of Islam the ideology without wishing any ill on your Dr.

Or is that concept too hard for you to grasp?

 

[Triggaaar]

Maybe I am, but thanks for sharing your speech. Bury your head in the sand if you wish

My head is not buried, I listen to the arguments and am happy to look for ways of improving things, like ensuring hate isn't preached and punishing those that do so.

but the forward thinking sages like yourself have failed this country.

This country has not been run by me or people the same as me, so it's weird you attributed the results to me. This country is also not a complete failure, it's doing pretty well. Which country that has banned Islam do you think is doing well, that you'd like us to emulate?

 

[Triggaaar]

My hate filled post? Geez - read it again

No you read again, I didn't say 'hate filled post', I said 'posts', so I won't read 'it' again, as there are more than one. There is hate in some of your posts.

 

[Yoda]

some do, there will be respected leaders, that know or suspect of problem people, but turn a blind eye or try unsuccessfully to intervene. the time has come for the normal Muslim to tell the extremist they wont be tolerated in the community anymore. the message from the leaders and imams must be, they come here for the benefits that western liberal democracies provide - jobs, freedom, lack of persecution. if they dont accept them, they can find another nation more suited to their fundamentalist ideas. thats the way forward, to help and encourage the muslims to purge their own community. the consequneces if they dont is obvious, because in the end we arent as a nation going to accept it forever and we do generally win.

If that were so you wouldn't have Muslims being blown up by extremists in the Middle East for not believing in their warped interpretation of the Quran.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

A thousand years, you say...?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists

Yeah I do say.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-the-arabic-world-turned-away-from-science

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1901_1950/the death of science in islamhtml.htm

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/opinion/aec/30272417

http://www.thenational.ae/thenation...ine-of-muslim-scientific-thought-still-haunts

 

[Nixonator]

No, I can't. But then, I'm not making that claim.

To be fair, you've made a couple.

I particularly enjoyed the one that states those who commit these atrocities were terrorists before they were islamists. I've heard some apologist nonsense in the past and that is right up there with the best of them.

 

[GT49er]

No, I can't. But then, I'm not making that claim.

Fair point, and I know you were responding to a bit of a rant - but he didn't actually claim it was taking place in every mosque either (although he certainly seems to think it's quite common) - so my point stands too.

 

[Triggaaar]

you really need to stop reading things into posts that aren't there when it suits you. Try finding the word 'all' in my post - no, you can't, but you're quite prepared to say that that is what I said.

That's because the English language allows us more than one way to say 'all'. You said 'And therein lies the problem. They may condemn the terrorists methods, but at the end of the day they share their ultimate aims'. By 'they' and 'their' you were referring to Muslims, so your post meant 'all' of them, because you didn't say 'some of them'.

 

[KVLT]

some do, there will be respected leaders, that know or suspect of problem people, but turn a blind eye or try unsuccessfully to intervene. the time has come for the normal Muslim to tell the extremist they wont be tolerated in the community anymore. the message from the leaders and imams must be, they come here for the benefits that western liberal democracies provide - jobs, freedom, lack of persecution. if they dont accept them, they can find another nation more suited to their fundamentalist ideas. thats the way forward, to help and encourage the muslims to purge their own community. the consequneces if they dont is obvious, because in the end we arent as a nation going to accept it forever and we do generally win.

Sorry but I respectfully disagree. Anyone who subscribes to the ideology of ISIS considers the teachings and interpretations of moderate Islam to be plainly wrong and misguided.

I also think we make a big mistake in constantly using the term 'Community'. I saw a discussion programme a while back where a Muslim member of the audience asserted "What is this 'Community' that is always referred to when discussing the issue? There is no more a Muslim Community than a Christian one".

 

[pigbite]

Muhammad was a violent piece of shit, whoever the Jesus person(real or not)was a pacifist, their stories and messages are nothing alike.

Not really. He apparently idly sat back whilst his father (or other part of him depending on your view of the Trinity) threw fire and brimstone on two whole cities, had the ground swallow up thousands of apostates against Moses, killed 72,000 (I think) people because King David had the temerity to call a census when he shouldn't, supported the genocide of an entire nation so his people could have their land, committed an entire nation to die in the desert because their leader didn't credit him with giving them water from a rock, wiped out all the firstborns of an entire nation so his people could be set free, had his angel wipe of 185,000 soldiers who came up against Israel, killed a bunch of kids with a bear for insulting his prophet, had his favourite king get away with murdering a man so he could have his wife yet struck a man down for trying to stop his Ark falling down, flooded an entire world because his creation fancied a shag on the earth....and so on....

Plus, he had the apostle Paul to balance the books of intolerance.