2017 Manchester arena attack

[GT49er]

That would be fair enough if the moderate Muslims had any influence over those that indulge in violence, but unfortunately they don't.

Perhaps that's because they have shared aims - the replacement of UK law by Sharia law, for example?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

It took hundreds of years for Christianity to lose it's real power and relevance but the past 100 years or so saw a real acceleration. I believe that Muslims need to build that critical mass with Islam as well. They are 400 years behind but no real reason for them not to make a start.

One massive difference between Christianity and Islam today is imo one of the biggest reasons Islam can't be swayed by societal pressure like Christianity was.

It has no one leader. Almost all other religions have a hierarchy which has one person as its spiritual leader. That person can greatly impact the direction a religion goes. The present Pope is proof of that.

There is no Pope in Islam, it's just a bunch of different people preaching whatever they like based on how they interpret the teachings of a warlord.

That kind of system is next to impossible to reign in or change on a wide scale.

 

[pigbite]

That's just not true. Plenty of christian learning facilities around the world have been involved in scientific advancement.

Granted it might not have been in certain fields but it didn't shut itself off completely from research and development.

Georges Lemaître is proof enough of that.

I hope you don't mean the Creationist Museum or the big Noah's Ark theme park...

Seriously however I didn't mean to imply that modern day Christians are anti-science or obstructive of scientific progress, more that when you look at major aspects of early modern scientific understanding (e.g. the basic structure of the solar system, evolutionary theory etc.), the scientists have had to fight against religious superstition and the understanding of the Bible.

Our understanding of the universe at every level is because humans have sought to look beyond the ideas in the Bible and simplistic default modes of thinking like the "god of the gaps" towards seeking answers to questions based on observation and experimentation. There has not been one scientific advance that has come about because someone read the answer in the Bible - rather it's predominately because they have ignored what it says..

Georges Lemaître was clearly a man of faith who made a massive contribution to our understanding of astrophysics however it did it by ignoring the notion that if we don't understand something then it's just a case of saying "it wos God wot dunnit".

 

[Wilko]

What? Many Christians also believe that everything is part of gods plan, that children that die young have been taken by god to be an angel or something. Your suggestion would mean that Muslims don't condemn when the west bomb the middle east, as it's all part of gods plan.

.

Indeed. It was not a solely anti Islam post, it was an anti religion post if anything.

As for your second point, correct, there is massive hypocrisy in the very view of ´gods plan´as by that logic you could never punish anyone or send them to prison. Ludicrous.

 

[The_Viper]

I mean lets face it, it is one of two things that caused this attack:


A lonely and depressed human being that wanted to kill people because they thought that was a good thing to do for themselves, some sort of self obsessed glory to themselves, goaded on by those on the internet or their voices in their head.
Regardless of this being the culprit or not we need to address mental illness, especially in men far more diligently so it doesn't happen more often and so those in those situations aren't doing this atrocious stuff to the detriment of everybody else, they need help and they need it now.

Or

It's religious terrorism and lets face it most likely Muslim. Regardless of this being the culprit we need to come together as a world and force them to modernise, for the most part all other faiths have had to move forward with the times because their old beliefs were barbaric, Islam seems to be the only one allowed to stay in its roots, we need to force it to modernise as a belief or it needs to be shunned from every modern country that holds its citizens dearer than these people filled with hate.

Tons of different cultures and people have shit thoughts on just about every person imaginable, people hate women, blacks, white men, Indians, gays, lesbians, kids, old people, you name it.

The thing is though those people spreading those opinions are for the most part shut down and told their horrible ideas aren't welcome, Islam seems to be the only thing given a free pass and it has to stop now.

 

[Bold Seagull]

One massive difference between Christianity and Islam today is imo one of the biggest reasons Islam can't be swayed by societal pressure like Christianity was.

It has no one leader. Almost all other religions have a hierarchy which has one person as its spiritual leader. That person can greatly impact the direction a religion goes. The present Pope is proof of that.

There is no Pope in Islam, it's just a bunch of different people preaching whatever they like based on how they interpret the teachings of a warlord.

That kind of system is next to impossible to reign in or change on a wide scale.

There is no Pope in Christianity!

Of the Pope in Catholicism of course, their blatant refusal to except and deal with worldwide evidence of sexual abuse, a refusal to accept the use of contraception to alleviate the spread of HIV in Africa and unwanted births - yes all proof of how spiritual the leading of a religion can be.

 

[East Preston Gull]

So of the 1.5m muslims, born and raised in the UK, where are you sending them exactly if they don't renounce their faith?

Do you not think your views, to put it bluntly, are extreme?

I think you are going back to Elizabethan England if you're looking for someone to blame for Islam setting root in this country.

They are more than welcome to find a country that supports their views. Islam has no place here.

Mosques should be bulldozed and if they wish to practice their fantasy then hire out a hall for the morning and be subject to the laws that prevent hateful rallies taking place in a public building.

Extreme I know but doing nothing has cost the lives of police officers, off duty soldiers and now teenage girls and get your head around this, an 8 yr old young girl who went to see her pop idol for the evening.

Being nice and accommodating to Islam has really worked out great here...just great.



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[AK74]

Suspected attacker known to the authorities:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...-manchester-attacker-23-year-old-salman-abedi

 

[East Preston Gull]

No. It isn't. I find your ideology just as scary as theirs.

I said Britain is a Christian country and you have the right to practice or ignore it.

Your embracing all attitude has failed and I in turn find your view disturbing.
But we will just have to disagree and get on with our one common love which is why we are on this board.

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[pigbite]

One massive difference between Christianity and Islam today is imo one of the biggest reasons Islam can't be swayed by societal pressure like Christianity was.

It has no one leader. Almost all other religions have a hierarchy which has one person as its spiritual leader. That person can greatly impact the direction a religion goes. The present Pope is proof of that.

There is no Pope in Islam, it's just a bunch of different people preaching whatever they like based on how they interpret the teachings of a warlord.

That kind of system is next to impossible to reign in or change on a wide scale.

This of course is true however that still doesn't prevent the majority of Muslims in this country from seeking reform and progression. Something has to change and simply throwing the burden onto Western governments and us all in terms of some kind of generic "western" culture does nothing to stamp out the base message that you are either "with us or against us" that is endemic to pretty much most religions in their raw form.

[EDIT] - I would apply that same thinking to some of the rhetoric thrown back from non Muslims about Islam.

 

[Triggaaar]

I struggle with this idea from so many, that violence is only perpetrated by " a very small percentage".

If for example you look at todays story ( on the BBC website)on the caning of the two Indonesian gay young men, you will see pictures of thousands of muslim spectators cheering it on and demanding even harsher physical punishment.

Public beheadings in arab countries are attended by thousands cheering.

Public hangings likewise can attract tens of thousands.

Video of ISIS parading their next victims are also hugely cheered by the masses.

Sharia law is very very popular in most muslim cultures.

Death by stoning is carried out by the public.

No, I,m sorry but I don't agree that it is "only a very small percentage".

Unfortunately I think you're right, it's more than a tiny percentage that have warped views. The was a documentary on the subject not so long ago, looking at the views of Muslims as a whole. It's a world not that far from our own though, we used to have people turning up in numbers to cheer on an execution.

I do think we need to do more to regulate what is and isn't allowed to be preached in this country. There are many Muslims who will be against these attacks, but there are also many that aren't, and that could change (for the better) if their Imams were teaching them the word of god correctly.

 

[The Large One]

Islamic teachings and laws should be purged from these shores. This religion has no place here.

We will have to put up with the usual hand holding from all faiths at the vigil tonight and the so called community leaders.

If these community leaders wish to be represented in media and public gatherings they should stand for election so they can legally speak for their kin.

Their preference for an Islamic way of life can be achieved over in the desert hovels of the middle east. Go their and oppress your women and girls. Here, we allow our young people to enjoy music and fun however much us older people criticise the music content and quality. It is their choice and we celebrate the freedoms.

Britain is a Christian country and we have a right to practice Christianity or ignore it if we wish. The radical Christians in this country are no more than individuals who proclaim the end of the world is nigh whilst wrapping themselves in a sandwich board.

England must be free of Islam and all those who preach for its dominance.
Come here by all means but renounce this garbage and become a free British citizen. Take your mosques and your oppressive views where they belong.

Rant over

A rant of little meaning.

If you ban Islam, you should ban Christianity - both invaders to these shores. Both have their histories of violence and tyranny in the name of their religion. Except in more enlightened times like ours, no-one accepts the tenet that these 'wars' today are anything to do with religion, irrespective of what they say. The Qu'ran explicitly forbids the slaying of children - so where does Islam come into this now?

What you mean is hate speech and a call to violence (which happens on all sides) has no place on these shores. In which case, I'd quite agree, but then that isn't the sole preserve of Islam.

Do you have any evidence that the community leaders have any part in these crimes? What you do have is evidence that the community leaders can't shout loud enough for some (including you, it seems) to condemn these atrocities. What do you want? A bigger megaphone? More tears? And many Muslims do stand in elections; one is the Mayor of London. And what happens? He gets accused of being part of the atrocities.

What you are doing in saying that is exactly what the terrorists want you do - sow discord and disunity. Is that how you wish to be portrayed - and having more in common with terrorists' aim than those of the community? Of course not, so don't say such things, and please don't insult 'community leaders' with the empty phrase 'so-called community leaders'. They are fighting hatred and anxiety just in trying to keep their communities united, peaceful and safe.

Britain is a far more secular country now, than merely being 'Christian'. It has a long history of Christianity of course - around 1,300 years (about the same age as Islam) - but that doesn't follow it has ONE religion; that's absurd. That said, I assume you know all your scriptures enough to be considered a good Christian...

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

There is no Pope in Christianity!

Of the Pope in Catholicism of course, their blatant refusal to except and deal with worldwide evidence of sexual abuse, a refusal to accept the use of contraception to alleviate the spread of HIV in Africa and unwanted births - yes all proof of how spiritual the leading of a religion can be.

And yet abusing them, attacking them publicly in media and other avenues actually lead to change within that organisation. Attacking them was accepted as being a valid action throughout.

And the most important thing, none of them lashed out and killed one person because of the criticism. They took it, might not have liked it, but they took it.

This is how Islam should be able to be attacked until it changes it backwards way.

 

[BBassic]

A rant of little meaning.

If you ban Islam, you should ban Christianity - both invaders to these shores. Both have their histories of violence and tyranny in the name of their religion. Except in more enlightened times like ours, no-one accepts the tenet that these 'wars' today are anything to do with religion, irrespective of what they say. The Qu'ran explicitly forbids the slaying of children - so where does Islam come into this now?

What you mean is hate speech and a call to violence (which happens on all sides) has no place on these shores. In which case, I'd quite agree, but then that isn't the sole preserve of Islam.

Do you have any evidence that the community leaders have any part in these crimes? What you do have is evidence that the community leaders can't shout loud enough for some (including you, it seems) to condemn these atrocities. What do you want? A bigger megaphone? More tears? And many Muslims do stand in elections; one is the Mayor of London. And what happens? He gets accused of being part of the atrocities.

What you are doing in saying that is exactly what the terrorists want you do - sow discord and disunity. Is that how you wish to be portrayed - and having more in common with terrorists' aim than those of the community? Of course not, so don't say such things, and please don't insult 'community leaders' with the empty phrase 'so-called community leaders'. They are fighting hatred and anxiety just in trying to keep their communities united, peaceful and safe.

Britain is a far more secular country now, than merely being 'Christian'. It has a long history of Christianity of course - around 1,300 years (about the same age as Islam) - but that doesn't follow it has ONE religion; that's absurd. That said, I assume you know all your scriptures enough to be considered a good Christian...

All of this. Literally every word.

 

[Triggaaar]

I was just thinking that. The days of me walking into The North Stand unchecked for a pint after a game to let the crowd go down at Falmer station are surely over.

To be honest their are unchecked crowds of people all around the country. There's Falmer station after the game, like stations all around the country.

If we wanted to keep the actual stadium a bit more secure, maybe the club could have a light barrier around the whole ground (like that used for the players to walk to their cars), so those already in the ground have been checked, and anyone else wanting to enter would be checked.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Truly shocking scenes,little kids slaughtered by backward savages.
What is our prime ministers priority?
Bring back fox hunting.
Unbelievable.

I totally agree with you. It just goes to show how out of touch with reality this government is.

 

[The Large One]

They are more than welcome to find a country that supports their views. Islam has no place here.

Mosques should be bulldozed and if they wish to practice their fantasy then hire out a hall for the morning and be subject to the laws that prevent hateful rallies taking place in a public building.

Extreme I know but doing nothing has cost the lives of police officers, off duty soldiers and now teenage girls and get your head around this, an 8 yr old young girl who went to see her pop idol for the evening.

Being nice and accommodating to Islam has really worked out great here...just great.

Actually, Islam does have a place here in the same way every religion has a right to be here. Of course, if you wish to send the likes of Beram Kayal home on prejudicial religious grounds - good luck.

While you're at it, can you provide first-hand, peer-tested proof that every Mosque, which have a perfect right to be here, are staging 'hateful rallies'? Thanks.

 

[GT49er]

Unfortunately I think you're right, it's more than a tiny percentage that have warped views. The was a documentary on the subject not so long ago, looking at the views of Muslims as a whole. It's a world not that far from our own though, we used to have people turning up in numbers to cheer on an execution.

Yes, and the key words there are 'used to' - we stopped, we grew up, matured and recognised it was wrong, and became a better society (although certainly not perfect) for it.

 

[Wilko]

I have no doubt that few of the Muslims that live in the UK are willing let alone capable of perpetrating such heinous crimes however there is the inescapable fact that Islam, like many forms of Christianity in times past, creates a difference between the believer and non-believer. Tolerance is essentially conditional and when push comes to shove does not permit a sitting on the fence about who's side you are really on. The fact that the vast majority of the victims of Muslim violence are other Muslims highlights the pernicious nature of the rhetoric and propaganda that can be drawn from religious interpretation.

However, the reason that very few so called Christians use violence to achieve their aims is because the West is increasingly secular, has replaced superstition with empirical evidence, is progressively tolerant and has stopped punishing people for breaking the moral codes of the Bible. Even highly sectarian conflicts like the Troubles have been largely consigned to history simply because people recognised you cannot go on forever with tit for tat violence.

I respect everyone's right to believe what they want to believe however it really is time for the so called moderate Muslim majority in this country to stand up and not only make their disgust at actions like this crystal clear but then work tirelessly to reform the aspects of their religion that allow people to develop such twisted views and consign the intolerance to the past.

Of course the West has it's part to play and there are the arguments around how the West has, and continues to behave in the affairs of other countries and cultures but the real change can only come from within.

It's not enough to keep claiming Islam is a religion of peace. Make it so.

Good post. Something I often think about is how we can move more towards a secular society without preaching because I do not believe preaching religion or atheism for that matter is a good thing. I have found a huge amount of comfort from losing my catholic upbringing to become atheist and would love others to find that path but how can that be encouraged?

There has been a logical progression of secularisation across Europe and other parts of the world but I just cannot see how it would work amongst the Islamic faith, one or two will turn their back on the faith but for the vast majoirty that seems an impossible task.

I know where I would start though, no more religious schools. Surely schools should be for all sexes, all colours and all faiths. It cannot be healthy to only integrate with one line of thinking.

 

[BevBHA]

There are more than 3000 dangerous people in this country – 11 people stabbed to death on London streets in the past month alone.

We are far from a shambles. What an insult to our police and intelligence services who continue to risk their lives protecting us. Who knows how many atrocities have been prevented, and the risks taken in doing so. We're yet to know how many victims maybe police and security services that you are denigrating so flippantly, smells slightly of The Sun story they've decided to run with this morning. Do you really think the families of a potentially fallen police officer want to hear people suggest we do nothing, or those of Keith Palmer?

What an ignorant reply. I was referring to our utterly useless politician who have failed to address the problem. Blatantly obvious we need a skilled worker entry process mirroring Australia