[Football] 1990 World Cup Semi-Final afters in West Street, Brighton...

[blue-shifted]

Stories like this are so depressing, more depressing is how we haven’t moved that far in the intervening years. Why when it’s England? Why does football’s reputation continually get dragged through the dirt like this?

Lots of reasons, some of them complex to do with class, our island mentality and insecurity of post war decline …. But I think the single biggest one is that when football (as opposed to fans of other countries or rugby) fans get too drunk and step out of line, the moderate football lovers who witness it, me included, don’t do enough to self-police and tell them to get back into line.

 

[Baker lite]

Pub landlady died

Landlady of the Regency if I remember rightly?
It’s a sad fact that We really are a nation nasty pricks when things don’t go as We’d like.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Stories like this are so depressing, more depressing is how we haven’t moved that far in the intervening years. Why when it’s England? Why does football’s reputation continually get dragged through the dirt like this?

Lots of reasons, some of them complex to do with class, our island mentality and insecurity of post war decline …. But I think the single biggest one is that when football (as opposed to fans of other countries or rugby) fans get too drunk and step out of line, the moderate football lovers who witness it, me included, don’t do enough to self-police and tell them to get back into line.

Firstly it got dragged through the dirt in 1990. Nothing (much) has happened this year. A couple of daft bints on an ambulance and some beer shower injuries but no riots. That *could* change tonight of course but we don't know for sure that it will.

But for me the answer is that it isn't really a football problem at all, It's all about our culture with alcohol and the fact that expectations get raised sky high by the media and we're whipped in to the sort of herd mentality that had the Doris I saw this morning driving along yelling "3 Lions" out of her car window, tunelessly. We build and we build and evetually the bubble pops to mix a metaphor. No one rioted after we lost to Iceland. We just accepted that we were shit and Roy was shit. THAT was football. Quietly going about your business in the full knowledge that a team you expected to let you down had done so. THIS is so much more. People who don't often go to games, people who'd never heard of Harry Maguire suddenly getting revved up by The Sun and BBC news and tanked up on shit lager and acting like group morons. And, as per my previous post on this thread I don't know that I wouldn't have done the same when I was that age.

Danny Baker once wrote a brilliant article for the old Sky magazine (not the media company) after the Luton v Millwall battles arguing that there was no real thing as football violence.There was football, sure, and violence. But there was pub violence and domestic violence and gang violence and chip shop violence and taxi rank violence. Football is just another catalyst and the reason it's football and not rugby or tiddlywinks or polo is that football is wildely popular and more so with the young working class.

 

[The Clamp]

Unfortunately a series of bad landlords at my local have allowed the place to be overrun with chavvy, underage drinkers so, although formerly a good football pub it was mantal in there v Sweden and even worse after as they stopped cars in the streets, rocking them and shouting through the windows ampng other pathetic behaviour. I shall slink along to The Buck, much better.

 

[The Clamp]

Firstly it got dragged through the dirt in 1990. Nothing (much) has happened this year. A couple of daft bints on an ambulance and some beer shower injuries but no riots. That *could* change tonight of course but we don't know for sure that it will.

But for me the answer is that it isn't really a football problem at all, It's all about our culture with alcohol and the fact that expectations get raised sky high by the media and we're whipped in to the sort of herd mentality that had the Doris I saw this morning driving along yelling "3 Lions" out of her car window, tunelessly. We build and we build and evetually the bubble pops to mix a metaphor. No one rioted after we lost to Iceland. We just accepted that we were shit and Roy was shit. THAT was football. Quietly going about your business in the full knowledge that a team you expected to let you down had done so. THIS is so much more. People who don't often go to games, people who'd never heard of Harry Maguire suddenly getting revved up by The Sun and BBC news and tanked up on shit lager and acting like group morons. And, as per my previous post on this thread I don't know that I wouldn't have done the same when I was that age.

Danny Baker once wrote a brilliant article for the old Sky magazine (not the media company) after the Luton v Millwall battles arguing that there was no real thing as football violence.There was football, sure, and violence. But there was pub violence and domestic violence and gang violence and chip shop violence and taxi rank violence. Football is just another catalyst and the reason it's football and not rugby or tiddlywinks or polo is that football is wildely popular and more so with the young working class.

I disagree. While I think that football fans get unfairly labelled there clearly is such a thing as football violence and saying there isn't is as ridiculous as saying all fans are hooligans.

 

[The Kid Frankie]

Jesus Christ we are in a World Cup semi final and this thread is full of miserable old ******** moaning at how nasty the country gets when we get deep into a tournament.

Down some nasty lager. Sing 10 German bombers. Set fire to a corner shop.

It's Coming Home enjoy yourselves.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I disagree. While I think that football fans get unfairly labelled there clearly is such a thing as football violence and saying there isn't is as ridiculous as saying all fans are hooligans.

You perhaps missed the nuance of the no real thing as football violence. In any case I'm paraphrasing from an old Danny Baker article that's never been digitised. What he was getting at is that people seek to blame football when it is violence that is the problem. That young males of a certain disposition, especially when tanked up, would kick off with a different excuse had football never been invented.

Obviously at the time there was trouble at and after games - one of the reasons we only took 2-300 on the road. I've seen aggro in a good few grief holes from Gillingham and Selhurst to Chesterfield via Birmingham but the only time I got really injured in the 90s was when some prick headbutted me in The Event on a Tuesday night for no reason at all, outside the football season.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Down some nasty lager. Sing 10 German bombers. Set fire to a corner shop.

It's Coming Home enjoy yourselves.

Jeez!

Hey listen, they're playing your pondscum song

 

[The Clamp]

You perhaps missed the nuance of the no real thing as football violence. In any case I'm paraphrasing from an old Danny Baker article that's never been digitised. What he was getting at is that people seek to blame football when it is violence that is the problem. That young males of a certain disposition, especially when tanked up, would kick off with a different excuse had football never been invented.

Obviously at the time there was trouble at and after games - one of the reasons we only took 2-300 on the road. I've seen aggro in a good few grief holes from Gillingham and Selhurst to Chesterfield via Birmingham but the only time I got really injured in the 90s was when some prick headbutted me in The Event on a Tuesday night for no reason at all, outside the football season.

No, I got the nuance. And I got the source.

 

[wellquickwoody]

It's a bit of a state though when that sort of precaution has to be taken by anyone just to avoid running into the wrong person. Kind of takes the nice off a bit

If it keeps the Scotch indoors then all is fine with the world.

 

[blue-shifted]

This underscores to me what a massive issue this country has with class.

There are working class pubs and middle class pubs, there are working class streets and middle class streets, there are working class newspapers and middle class newspapers, there are working class schools and middle class schools.

People don’t ever move between classes and rarely form lasting friendships or relationships across classes. The different classes have very different views of how they see Britain and its place in the world. The two classes hardly ever understand each other’s point of view.

The classes only really unite over a love of football, but their response to issues is different. (See how Brighton and Burnley fans saw the Jay Rodriguez issue completely differently). Middle class fans can’t understand why you’d sing the Dambusters theme to German fans and working class fans, I’m guessing, can’t understand why middle class fans won’t stick up for their nation.

Anyway, this is all just my musings. I’ve got no particular thoughts that anything can or should be done about it.

 

[The Clamp]

Firstly it got dragged through the dirt in 1990. Nothing (much) has happened this year. A couple of daft bints on an ambulance and some beer shower injuries but no riots. That *could* change tonight of course but we don't know for sure that it will.

But for me the answer is that it isn't really a football problem at all, It's all about our culture with alcohol and the fact that expectations get raised sky high by the media and we're whipped in to the sort of herd mentality that had the Doris I saw this morning driving along yelling "3 Lions" out of her car window, tunelessly. We build and we build and evetually the bubble pops to mix a metaphor. No one rioted after we lost to Iceland. We just accepted that we were shit and Roy was shit. THAT was football. Quietly going about your business in the full knowledge that a team you expected to let you down had done so. THIS is so much more. People who don't often go to games, people who'd never heard of Harry Maguire suddenly getting revved up by The Sun and BBC news and tanked up on shit lager and acting like group morons. And, as per my previous post on this thread I don't know that I wouldn't have done the same when I was that age.

Danny Baker once wrote a brilliant article for the old Sky magazine (not the media company) after the Luton v Millwall battles arguing that there was no real thing as football violence.There was football, sure, and violence. But there was pub violence and domestic violence and gang violence and chip shop violence and taxi rank violence. Football is just another catalyst and the reason it's football and not rugby or tiddlywinks or polo is that football is wildely popular and more so with the young working class.

I also disagree that it is largely working class people that cause the violence. In my experience and traditionally, the working class have great respect for each other, people who live and work in the area. It's middle class idiots that cause most of the trouble.

 

[LlcoolJ]

I also disagree that it is largely working class people that cause the violence. In my experience and traditionally, the working class have great respect for each other, people who live and work in the area. It's middle class idiots that cause most of the trouble.

Except when the riots happened a few years ago. Which was mainly the underclass. Or Palace fans as some people call them.

 

[The Clamp]

Except when the riots happened a few years ago. Which was mainly the underclass. Or Palace fans as some people call them.

Palace fans come from places like Croydon, Molesey, Walton, Cobham, Sutton etc, all Surrey towns with above average income. But as you say, underclass in many respects.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I also disagree that it is largely working class people that cause the violence. In my experience and traditionally, the working class have great respect for each other, people who live and work in the area. It's middle class idiots that cause most of the trouble.

I'd be honestly amazed if there was a single middle class Millwall fan in the late 80s, which is specifically what he was talking about. The blokes I watched games with back then were mainly manual labourers or worked on the railway. Today, though, you have to have a bit of wedge to watch football. Whether you have wedge and class is a different story. But if it kicks off tonight if we lose I'm fully expecting more trouble in the likes of Stoke, Birmingham and Manchester than Leamington Spa, Windsor and Beaconsfield.

 

[Megazone]

I also disagree that it is largely working class people that cause the violence. In my experience and traditionally, the working class have great respect for each other, people who live and work in the area. It's middle class idiots that cause most of the trouble.

I remember the upper class throwing Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese at anyone looking slightly German plus throwing their empty bottles of Chateau Margaux all over the streets of Brighton that night. Some even went to the lengths of drink-riding their horses around their local golf course urinating in all the holes.

They disgraced themselves massively that night.

 

[LlcoolJ]

I remember the upper class throwing Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese at anyone looking slightly German plus throwing their empty bottles of Chateau Margaux all over the streets of Brighton that night. Some even went to the lengths of drink-riding their horses around their local golf clubs urinating in all the holes.

They disgraced themselves massively that night.

And that was just Johnson, Osborne and Cameron.

 

[Perry Milkins]

Palace fans come from places like Croydon, Molesey, Walton, Cobham, Sutton etc, all Surrey towns with above average income. But as you say, underclass in many respects.

What about Irlam O't'heights or Chipping Sodbury?

 

[Eeyore]

And that was just Johnson, Osborne and Cameron.

Yes, the judge said that all the witnesses were discredited on account of having low incomes.

 

[spring hall convert]

It's all about our culture with alcohol.

Think that's about the long and short of it.