15 days in jail and deported.

[BigGully]

Sounds like I need to read that Ian Kershaw book again about the Nazi's rise to power because I seem to remember that the so-called elections may have been rigged in some way, not to mention lots of the opponents being found in forests, oh and the SS making sure people knew who to vote for.

I am not an expert and I am simplifying this some what but.....

There was a depression and the hardship throughout Germany was quite horrific, no food no jobs......but they was a 'perception' at least that the Jewish Communities had the jobs and access to food.

The elections really didnt need to be rigged, Hitler/Nazis promised an end to hardship and of course was an exceptional speech maker and people were receptive to the anti semetic comments as the reason for their own hardships.

 

[Buzzer]

Correct - you've paraphrased me now though? originally you were quoting BigGully?

no. I'm quoting you directly. Word for word. I was never quoting BigGully only you.

 

[tedebear]

no. I'm quoting you directly. Word for word. I was never quoting BigGully only you.

Riight - well sorry to dissapoint you but you've completely lost me and I really have had enough of this.

 

[BigGully]

Yep you have - Big Gully wants his idea of what is "law" broadly imposed on any country who he sees as not being righteous enough.

Try to separate a country's law from its punishment. I don't desire to have other countires applying our laws to their citizens...they have been raised with different ideologies and regligious beliefs. They hold different values. Yes there are probably a few laws where there is exception (as in the raped woman being found guilty of committing a crime) but on the whole we cannot impose our law on other countries. What we CAN do is fight to ensure that the punishments handed out byt these countries for people who break their laws are in compliance with Human Rights conventions and that henious and barbaric punishments are ceased.

No I dont.......really do not.......

But if Countries wish to take our money and skills and wish to trade with them, then there must be a responsibility for that Country to share some common values with our own. If they dont wish to do this then fine.

I have muted that maybe now is the time to let these Countries become isolated and our paths do not cross and let them flog and murder as many woman as they like.

But as of today they continue to enjoy the benefits of a level of relationship with Britain. Therefore it can only be right to examine some of their cultural history and ask some questions arising from this episode.

The real problem is that there really is an empathy with these sorts of punishment within our own Muslim Community that needs to be addressed by the moderate Muslims that are here.

 

[Dave the OAP]

No I dont.......really do not.......

But if Countries wish to take our money and skills and wish to trade with them, then there must be a responsibility for that Country to share some common values with our own. If they dont wish to do this then fine.

I have muted that maybe now is the time to let these Countries become isolated and our paths do not cross and let them flog and murder as many woman as they like.

But as of today they continue to enjoy the benefits of a level of relationship with Britain. Therefore it can only be right to examine some of their cultural history and ask some questions arising from this episode.

The real problem is that there really is an empathy with these sorts of punishment within our own Muslim Community that needs to be addressed by the moderate Muslims that are here.

How does that apply to our biggest trading partner in the region? Saudi Arabia

 

[DJ Leon]

How does that apply to our biggest trading partner in the region? Saudi Arabia

Indeed and also the United States of America - our 'special' friend and one of the world's top abusers of civil liberties.

*pulls up chair in anticipation*

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Not forgetting China and their sustained Humans Rights abuse practices. Hell, we are even having a jolly nice sports tournament over there soon.

 

[BigGully]

How does that apply to our biggest trading partner in the region? Saudi Arabia

Yeah of course we have a responsibility to try and impact on their attrocities too.

Oil is the link there and it would be fantastic if we could find an alternative form of energy rather than be so reliant on frankly such a despot regime.

I am a realist not an idealist...................

 

[BigGully]

Indeed and also the United States of America - our 'special' friend and one of the world's top abusers of civil liberties.

*pulls up chair in anticipation*

Nah..........you really cant throw such an accusation at the USA.

They aint saints and their current leader seems absurd......

'Top Abusers of Civil Liberties'.....................not laudable.

 

[Buzzer]

Riight - well sorry to dissapoint you but you've completely lost me and I really have had enough of this.

You posted on this thread #38, 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence the line "What gives you the right to impose your laws on them? "

To which I responded that I thought you were saying "we the British shouldn't try and impose our values and our laws on the Sudanese courts..."

But apparently I've misunderstood what you have said. I can see absolutely no difference between the 2 statements and if that's confusing for you then think what it's like for the rest of us.

This really gets to the whole nub of the argument that I have been having with you.

You think we should not get involved with trying to change the laws of a sovereign country even if we think them unjust and barbaric. I think that's wrong.


Have I still misunderstood? It looks pretty clear cut to me.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Jesus, this is like dealing with my kids at home. Right, Buzzer, tedebear, come here and be quiet. Any more of this nonsense and you'll lose your Gameboys for a week. Buzzer, go to your room. Tede - get on with your homework.


Okay everyone - carry on.

 

[BigGully]

You posted on this thread #38, 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence the line "What gives you the right to impose your laws on them? "

To which I responded that I thought you were saying "we the British shouldn't try and impose our values and our laws on the Sudanese courts..."

But apparently I've misunderstood what you have said. I can see absolutely no difference between the 2 statements and if that's confusing for you then think what it's like for the rest of us.

This really gets to the whole nub of the argument that I have been having with you.

You think we should not get involved with trying to change the laws of a sovereign country even if we think them unjust and barbaric. I think that's wrong.


Have I still misunderstood? It looks pretty clear cut to me.

Jeeeeeez....i think I disagree with you and agree with Tede.............

 

[Dave the OAP]

To a certain degree Laura was right. If you go to a country that is governed by what I would call as a more radical version of Islam ) or Midwest of america that matter), you are aware in no certain terms that there are certain things you must be careful of. And more importantly..AWARE of.

Yes this woman in the eyes of certain fanatics has blasphemed and we all know that 99.9999% of muslims think its crap.....however 99.9999% of muslims do not make up for the 0.00001%who are out to convert the world to their variation of Islam and dont give a toss at the rest of the muslim world as they think they are right and everyone else is wrong..be it extremist islam or evangelical.

Blaming the whole of the Sudanese population and threatening to cut off all aid is not really aceptable is it? You just end up operating a tit for tat policy, which is ultimately devicive

 

[Buzzer]

Indeed and also the United States of America - our 'special' friend and one of the world's top abusers of civil liberties.

*pulls up chair in anticipation*

Why did you even bother posting that crap? You know full well it's a pack of lies.

1 out of 10 for effort
0 out of 10 for attempts to get someone flouncing
0 out of 10 for having a grasp of current affairs
10 out of 10 for the usual anti-american shite.

Could do better if you applied yourself.

 

[tedebear]

You posted on this thread #38, 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence the line "What gives you the right to impose your laws on them? "

To which I responded that I thought you were saying "we the British shouldn't try and impose our values and our laws on the Sudanese courts..."

But apparently I've misunderstood what you have said. I can see absolutely no difference between the 2 statements and if that's confusing for you then think what it's like for the rest of us.

So you are debating the difference between two sentences and that gives you the right to agree with my being called a Nazi sympathiser and compliant with the Sudanese laws. That really is rather far fetched logic.

You think we should not get involved with trying to change the laws of a sovereign country even if we think them unjust and barbaric. I think that's wrong.

I've already spotted that that is what you were arguing and I've answered that several posts ago. Keep up. Read my post re the difference between law and punishment.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Right, that's it the pair of you. Just wait til your Mother gets home!

 

[Dave the OAP]

Blimey...Tede is a Nazi?

The world has truly gone mad

 

[tedebear]

Right, that's it the pair of you. Just wait til your Mother gets home!

Sorry Hans, I vehemently object to being called compliant with either Nazi rule or Sudanese law so I suppose I'm posting in the hope of an apology, but that seems to be an impossibility for either of these two. I'll move along then.

 

[BigGully]

To a certain degree Laura was right. If you go to a country that is governed by what I would call as a more radical version of Islam ) or Midwest of america that matter), you are aware in no certain terms that there are certain things you must be careful of. And more importantly..AWARE of.

Yes this woman in the eyes of certain fanatics has blasphemed and we all know that 99.9999% of muslims think its crap.....however 99.9999% of muslims do not make up for the 0.00001%who are out to convert the world to their variation of Islam and dont give a toss at the rest of the muslim world as they think they are right and everyone else is wrong..be it extremist islam or evangelical.

Blaming the whole of the Sudanese population and threatening to cut off all aid is not really aceptable is it? You just end up operating a tit for tat policy, which is ultimately devicive

99.9999% your stats do not really stand up to closer inspection.

Such rose tinted spectacles on this important issue is not what is needed.

This poll in the Telegraph says that 40% of British based Muslim want Sharia Law in this Country and that The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people. Now please take a moment to read this report.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_19022006

( might have to cut & paste sorry )

Where have you been for the last few years are you seriously not aware of the problem within these Communities, surely any moderate Muslim or Neo Liberal must be aware of this.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Sorry Hans, I vehemently object to being called compliant with either Nazi rule or Sudanese law so I suppose I'm posting in the hope of an apology, but that seems to be an impossibility for either of these two. I'll move along then.

Obviously Buzzer doesn't really think that at all, and was using that as an extreme extension to illustrate what he saw as a flaw in your thinking regarding this particular case. At this stage though its descended to pedantry and stubborness, so I'd ignore the thread entirely and move on, if I were either of you!