[Politics] Brexit

WATFORD zero · Jun 5, 2020

Gwylan said:
You're being a bit selective on that issue: the drawing of the border in the Irish Sea (and closer ties between NI and ROI) is one of the reasons why some people voted for Brexit.

Yes, indeed. I know a regular (and recent) leave poster on here who has always wanted to give 'NI back to Ireland', (I then had to explain the history of Ireland to him).

However I am being selective and selected [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] quotes, as he is the most ardent unionist and supporter of the Conservative and Unionist (for now) party, and yet is willing to accept the Irish Sea border in order to get 'his Brexit' :wink:

*edit*

I've just found the history bit, but I'll only print my response

It's probably also worth noting that Northern Ireland has never been part of the Republic of Ireland so there is no previous historical state to return to. (As far as I know, it still is a single Island ) When what is now the Republic of Ireland was formed as the Irish Free State, Northern Ireland chose to opt out and form its own distinct region so the Republic has only ever been the 26 counties.

The last time Ireland was independently united was around 1011 when the regional rulers recognised Brian Boru as king but even that only lasted a year. The only time that Ireland has been united as a political entity has been under British rule so it would almost make more sense to ask why doesn’t the Republic of Ireland return to the UK to have a united Ireland again?

But you have been backed into a corner and are now so desperate for any kind of Brexit, you really don't care who gets f***ed over in your desperation. With each desperate lurch to find an answer to implementing Brexit, you just open up another can of worms

ManOfSussex · Jun 5, 2020

Gwylan said:
You're being a bit selective on that issue: the drawing of the border in the Irish Sea (and closer ties between NI and ROI) is one of the reasons why some people voted for Brexit.

Who was advocating a border in the Irish Sea being in 2016? Sinn Fein backed remain, The DUP backed Brexit and there is no mention of it in any Vote Leave literature.

Gwylan · Jun 5, 2020

Mo Gosfield said:
Why would this current government reduce some of the highest quality control standards in the world? A lot of our food processes are not dodgy. Why use a throwaway comment when its totally untrue. We have tight environmental standards in this country, professionally enforced and action is always taken if something untoward is discovered.

But the government has just said that they can't guarantee that we'll keep these standards (and if they won't guarantee them, you can bet your life that they're going to be removed or weakened)

Gwylan · Jun 5, 2020

ManOfSussex said:
Who was advocating a border in the Irish Sea being in 2016? Sinn Fein backed remain, The DUP backed Brexit and there is no mention of it in any Vote Leave literature.

Well, no-one mentioned it but it was obvious that the Irish border was going to be a thorny problem. There were only two real choices: a hard border between ROI and NI (and that was ruled out by Cameron, May, Johnson, all NI parties and the ROI government) or a border in the Irish Sea,

So, if there are only two choices and one is definitely ruled out, isn't it obvious that the other one will happen?

Mo Gosfield · Jun 5, 2020

Chicken Run said:
Looking at the way the government are handling the current COVID 19 crisis I have no confidence of them delivering anything other than a no deal Brexit!

Which will pale into insignificance compared to the economic fallout from Covid 19. Those of you on this thread still wetting yourselves over Brexit and its possible implications really need to grasp how huge this current catastrophe is going to be. Whole industries are going to be decimated. Millions around the world will find themselves jobless. Increased taxation, austerity, recession, depression...you name it...we are going to get it. Inside the EU or out of it.

Pretty pink fairy · Jun 5, 2020

The usual suspects crying over spilt milk ,marvalous scenes
Regards
DF

vegster · Jun 5, 2020

Mo Gosfield said:
Why would this current government reduce some of the highest quality control standards in the world? A lot of our food processes are not dodgy. Why use a throwaway comment when its totally untrue. We have tight environmental standards in this country, professionally enforced and action is always taken if something untoward is discovered. I am proud of our food production/processing standards in this country and our traceability procedures are second to none. At retail level, there is full traceability. At catering level it is slightly lower but pretty good. It is improving. Thankfully, the EU have finally caught up with the Dutch and their ' intensive ' pig farming methods and the huge volumes of chicken coming in from Thailand and its Far Eastern neighbours is now strictly monitored. Practices like Ireland importing cheap South American product ( e.g Corned Beef ) and labelling it as a product of the EU, have also been largely been stamped out.
Food processes are not dodgy. If there is an issue, it is usually the result of incorrect handling or storage of product.

I really don't have the time to explain my " Throwaway comment".... I would suggest that we do have " some" of the highest food standards in the world, but plenty of terrible ones too.

Look up " Salmon Farming Problems" if you dare.

Pretty Plnk Fairy · Jun 5, 2020

ManOfSussex said:
there is no mention of it in any Vote Leave literature.

Yes their was

"Brexit means brexit"

Regards

DF

ManOfSussex · Jun 5, 2020

Gwylan said:
Well, no-one mentioned it but it was obvious that the Irish border was going to be a thorny problem. There were only two real choices: a hard border between ROI and NI (and that was ruled out by Cameron, May, Johnson, all NI parties and the ROI government) or a border in the Irish Sea,

So, if there are only two choices and one is definitely ruled out, isn't it obvious that the other one will happen?

Not really, because those 2 choices didn't exist in the binary form that you present them in now back then. I doubt that a leave voter in East Belfast who went to cast his vote wearing a Rangers shirt and Red Hand tattoos on his arm did so in the hope of a border in the Irish Sea either. Vote Leave were mentioning the fact 'There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it' and dismissing the concerns of John Major, Tony Blair, Johnathan Powell etc as Project Fear. I can't recall any of them mentioning a border in the Irish Sea as a solution to the problem back then either, as the border in the Irish Sea idea came afterwards. If you had the vision to foresee that a Conservative and Unionist Government would happily sign up to an internal UK border and help facilitate the break up the Union, you're in a rather exclusive club.

Chicken Run · Jun 5, 2020

Pretty Plnk Fairy said:
Yes their was

"Brexit means brexit"

Regards

DF

#imposter

WATFORD zero · Jun 5, 2020

Gwylan said:
Well, no-one mentioned it but it was obvious that the Irish border was going to be a thorny problem. There were only two real choices: a hard border between ROI and NI (and that was ruled out by Cameron, May, Johnson, all NI parties and the ROI government) or a border in the Irish Sea,

So, if there are only two choices and one is definitely ruled out, isn't it obvious that the other one will happen?

But at the time, prominent leave campaigners were saying we may not, and in some cases, definitely not leaving the single market. Obviously, we all know now that was a lie, but I'm sure that took people in at the time, so there were three options back then.

Pretty pink fairy · Jun 5, 2020

vegster said:
I really don't have the time to explain my " Throwaway comment".... I would suggest that we do have " some" of the highest food standards in the world, but plenty of terrible ones too.

Look up " Salmon Farming Problems" if you dare.

I'd be more concerned with the state of some of the Kitchens where this sub standard food was being
Cooked , carry on grizzling though
Regards
DF

narly101 · Jun 5, 2020

Mo Gosfield said:
Chicken Run said:

Looking at the way the government are handling the current COVID 19 crisis I have no confidence of them delivering anything other than a no deal Brexit!

Which will pale into insignificance compared to the economic fallout from Covid 19. Those of you on this thread still wetting yourselves over Brexit and its possible implications really need to grasp how huge this current catastrophe is going to be. Whole industries are going to be decimated. Millions around the world will find themselves jobless. Increased taxation, austerity, recession, depression...you name it...we are going to get it. Inside the EU or out of it.

Click to expand...

Ah so thats ok then. We can accept the import of US chlorinated chicken, and growth hormone injected beef from the US, because we're ****ed because of Covid?

Sweet Christmas. You really, really don't get it.

Gwylan · Jun 5, 2020

WATFORD zero said:
But at the time, prominent leave campaigners were saying we may not, and in some cases, definitely not leaving the single market. Obviously, we all know now that was a lie, but I'm sure that took people in at the time, so there were three options back then.

Yes, that's true. But once we'd had the vote that option vanished and it was clear that once that option had gone there were only two ... and one was emphatically ruled out

WATFORD zero · Jun 5, 2020

Gwylan said:
Yes, that's true. But once we'd had the vote that option vanished and it was clear that once that option had gone there were only two ... and one was emphatically ruled out

Not being awkward, but it was till the preferred option when I posted this in December 2017 (during May's negotiations), as she had already turned down the Irish Sea border that Johnson then managed to 'negotiate' 2 years later :wink:

WATFORD zero said:
That would be the exact same section that TM tried earlier in the week and was immediately kicked into touch by the DUP then.

There were only ever three options

1/ Hard Border between NI and Ireland
2/ Hard Border between NI and rest of Britain and NI operates under EU rules.
3/ No Hard Border and GB operates under EU rules.

Whatever other waffle is wrapped around it those are the options and we've gone for 3. It's really not that complicated.

It's not about abandoning Brexit, It's about implementing it

Gwylan · Jun 5, 2020

ManOfSussex said:
Not really, because those 2 choices didn't exist in the binary form that you present them in now back then. I doubt that a leave voter in East Belfast who went to cast his vote wearing a Rangers shirt and Red Hand tattoos on his arm did so in the hope of a border in the Irish Sea either. Vote Leave were mentioning the fact 'There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it' and dismissing the concerns of John Major, Tony Blair, Johnathan Powell etc as Project Fear. I can't recall any of them mentioning a border in the Irish Sea as a solution to the problem back then either, as the border in the Irish Sea idea came afterwards. If you had the vision to foresee that a Conservative and Unionist Government would happily sign up to an internal UK border and help facilitate the break up the Union, you're in a rather exclusive club.

Of course they didn't exist in that form - as people on this thread keeping reminding us, the choice was Remain or Leave. And it was obvious to me that (once all parties ruled out a hard border) this would very likely lead to closer links between the ROI and NI. This isn't hindsight, I said something very similar to this on this or on the original thread, around the time of the referendum.

WATFORD zero · Jun 5, 2020

Gwylan said:
Of course they didn't exist in that form - as people on this thread keeping reminding us, the choice was Remain or Leave. And it was obvious to me that (once all parties ruled out a hard border) this would very likely lead to closer links between the ROI and NI. This isn't hindsight, I said something very similar to this on this or on the original thread, around the time of the referendum.

I'm sure I remember you saying this at the time, but wasn't it on the basis of your preferred option of us staying in a Customs Union, if I remember correctly ?

Pretty pink fairy · Jun 5, 2020

Praise the lord for the General election result,no deal no problem, we left in January the UK can do what it Likes
Regards
DF

Gwylan · Jun 5, 2020

WATFORD zero said:
Not being awkward, but it was till the preferred option in December 2017 (during May's negotiations), as she had already turned down the Irish Sea border that Johnson managed to 'negotiate' 2 years later

Yes, but that was only temporary, the idea was that it would be replaced by magic technology. I write about technolgy so I knew that was a non-starter so, for all the rhetoric, it was clear what was going to happen.

You see similar in the discussion right now about farming and animal welfare. Right through the referendum debate and for all the years after, the government has held the line that UK farming standards are the best in the world and they wouldn't be lowered, blah,blah. Now, as we near the end of the transition period, the goverment are now abandoning that line. In a few weeks, it will be spun as freeing up regulations to give consumers a better deal.

Gwylan · Jun 5, 2020

WATFORD zero said:
I'm sure I remember you saying this at the time, but wasn't it on the basis of your preferred option of us staying in a Customs Union, if I remember correctly ?

That was my preferred option for the UK, yes. But it was clear that if we didn't stay in the CU, that there would be a de facto CU between NI and the ROI

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