- Aug 24, 2020
- 7,994
It's also in huge debt to China I believe.
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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
GoldstoneVintage
Well-known member
Looks like Ukraine's parliament will debate the deal on Monday but there are parts they aren't happy with and want changing.
kyivindependent.com
Ukraine’s work on finalizing minerals deal to start on Feb. 24, parliament speaker says
The U.S. is reportedly looking to obtain an interest in 50% of Ukraine's natural resources through a joint investment fund as payback for its support for Kyiv.
kyivindependent.com
Was Paul Warburg's video on the US/Ukraine spat posted here (2 days old)?
He says the it's understandable if you understand Trump, and look at it as a sequence of events:
1. Trump took office, softened negative rhetoric on Ukraine
2. Zelenskyy offered rare earth metals to US in exchange for help
Trump wants this deal, so goes into negotiation mode
3. Trump Admin says Ukraine's peace requirements are unreasonable
4. Trump talks to Putin (knowing this will bother Ukraine)
5. US gives Ukraine low ball offer, which they knew Ukriane would reject
6. Zelenskyy rejects deal
7. Zelenskyy said Ukraine would not accept a peace deal made without them
8. Trump resumes anti Ukraine rhetoric (saying war is Ukraine's fault)
9. Zelenskyy said Trump was compromised by Russian dissinformation
10. Trump called Zelenskyy a dictator
So Paul is suggesting that Trump isn't really on Russia's side, just that Trump is trying to push Ukraine into a corner such that they accept a deal that they wouldn't otherwise accept.
Whether Trump will then offer a deal that Ukraine will accept remains to be seen. So far all suggestions appear to be mad, and completely unacceptable to Ukraine.
He says the it's understandable if you understand Trump, and look at it as a sequence of events:
1. Trump took office, softened negative rhetoric on Ukraine
2. Zelenskyy offered rare earth metals to US in exchange for help
Trump wants this deal, so goes into negotiation mode
3. Trump Admin says Ukraine's peace requirements are unreasonable
4. Trump talks to Putin (knowing this will bother Ukraine)
5. US gives Ukraine low ball offer, which they knew Ukriane would reject
6. Zelenskyy rejects deal
7. Zelenskyy said Ukraine would not accept a peace deal made without them
8. Trump resumes anti Ukraine rhetoric (saying war is Ukraine's fault)
9. Zelenskyy said Trump was compromised by Russian dissinformation
10. Trump called Zelenskyy a dictator
So Paul is suggesting that Trump isn't really on Russia's side, just that Trump is trying to push Ukraine into a corner such that they accept a deal that they wouldn't otherwise accept.
Whether Trump will then offer a deal that Ukraine will accept remains to be seen. So far all suggestions appear to be mad, and completely unacceptable to Ukraine.
What there is encouraging?
- Aug 24, 2020
- 7,994
With all the pressure, threats, insults and humiliation of Zelensky from Trump, you could be forgiven for thinking he is really keen for a deal to be agreed.
It is encouraging that Ukraine don't seem likely to roll over.
It is encouraging that Ukraine don't seem likely to roll over.
Looks like Ukraine's parliament will debate the deal on Monday but there are parts they aren't happy with and want changing.
Ukraine’s work on finalizing minerals deal to start on Feb. 24, parliament speaker says
The U.S. is reportedly looking to obtain an interest in 50% of Ukraine's natural resources through a joint investment fund as payback for its support for Kyiv.
There's only one part of the deal that's really unacceptable.
The words.
(copyright Blackadder)
Last edited:
Thanks. According to which law?
I agree.
Well let's hope not. I'm concerned that Ukraine are debating it on Monday, but hopefully that's just diplomacy talking, and they've already decided to reject it.
GoldstoneVintage
Well-known member
That the 'deal' is unacceptable to Ukraine in its current form. Our collective dismay was at the awfulness of the deal if Ukraine were to accept. This gives me a glimmer of hope that they won't accept a shitty deal.
- Nov 11, 2009
- 12,548
One thing Zelenskyy does better than Trump or Putin, is defiance against the perceived bigger fish.
It also galvanises Ukrainian society into a siege mentality around the flag and president.
- Aug 24, 2020
- 7,994
No harm in taking a few more days. Put it in the intray, debate it, kick it around a bit, and then ask for a few amendments.
Above all, don't work to Trump's timeframe.
Besides, I assume this is key, and not easy for the Americans to specify, even in the second version of the document:
'Work had continued on the document “all night” but was held up by the issue of “security guarantees,” Suspline reported.'
- Aug 24, 2020
- 7,994
Just to add, I think it will be difficult for the Americans to specify and ringfence the security guarantees, in view of the fact that they seem to have outsourced the security guarantee to third-party Europeans (without agreeing a sub-contract with the Europeans).
Its one of the basic principles of contract law which is universally recognised. So it would be US contract law in this case...
undue influence
It' not about the peace though. There doesn't appear to be anything in the 'deal' about peace. Just how much it is going to cost Ukraine to buy military aids from the US. That's it.
- Aug 24, 2020
- 7,994
Indeed. That might well be the issue !
Ukraine has complained about the security guarantee (or lack of) in both iterations of the deal......
The Americans want to leave the security guarantee until later in the process, but AFTER Ukraine has signed the rare earths deal
, but the awkward Ukrainians have spotted this and want the security guarantee pinned down BEFORE they sign their country away.And anyway - the peace is dependant on a third party. You can't have a contract between Ukraine and the US guaranteeing peace - it could only guarantee some form of help fighting Russia. The US cannot guarantee a Russian ceasefire / withdrawal.Indeed. That might well be the issue !
Ukraine has complained about the security guarantee (or lack of) in both iterations of the deal......
The Americans want to leave the security guarantee until later in the process, but AFTER Ukraine has signed the rare earths deal
I don't think they'll be dishonourable... so they just shouldn't sign it
Its one of the basic principles of contract law which is universally recognised. So it would be US contract law in this case...
undue influence
www.law.cornell.edu
Which laws are followed for international deals?
The peace treaties at the end of wars usually have some coercion.
And after a deal is signed, and some weapons delivered from the US, Trump will say..."oh no, you can't attack russian refineries with those, you can't do this, you can't do that..." Ukraine are being stitched up, I'm sure.Indeed. That might well be the issue !
Ukraine has complained about the security guarantee (or lack of) in both iterations of the deal......
The Americans want to leave the security guarantee until later in the process, but AFTER Ukraine has signed the rare earths deal