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[Politics] Are Labour going to turn this country around?

Is Labour going to turn the country around

  • Yes

    Votes: 120 25.8%
  • No

    Votes: 283 60.9%
  • Fence

    Votes: 62 13.3%

  • Total voters
    465


Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,284
On NSC for over two decades...
I always enjoy when people rail against "human rights" as some sort of negative thing. Are they themselves not human?

By all means, do away with them - but don't you dare complain when your lives are impinged upon.

It is a complicated balancing act, where do an individual's rights outweigh those of wider society? Do citizen's rights outweigh those of non citizens.

I don't know the answer to the above, but suspect it'd make a great episode of the Moral Maze.
 




Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
70,523
Withdean area
It’s very tempting to be emotional over terrible crimes like rape. Every case is different. The Jamaican had been beaten and abused himself as a child. That’s no excuse, of course.
He served 7 years, wrote a letter of apology to the victim, and attended a victim awareness course. Reoffending rapes are 4%, so unlikely to reoffend.


Judges look at the facts, not emotions, even though we don’t like their decisions, and journalists like to play on our emotions especially the tabloids.

7 years versus a life destroyed forever. I’ve known rape victims, also the victims of other stranger sexual assaults.

Many, many sex offenders including murderers had a background themselves of being abused, but it’s not a major mitigation. Thank god sentencing has been increased for these evil crimes.
 


seagullsovergrimsby

#cpfctinpotclub
Aug 21, 2005
44,001
Crap Town
I wonder why Scotland has abandoned Labour after 6 months, the 36 seats gains were extremely helpful. The SNP was a despised shambles last July. Are the SNP playing their old game of promising the uncosted earth?
The SNP are bribing the electorate with a Scottish WFA worth £100 in preparation for the Scots election next year.
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
21,243
Deepest, darkest Sussex
The polling position ultimately shows why nobody ever gets anything serious done in this country. Whether you agree with what Labour are doing or not, the justification they would give is that it is about long term outcomes for short term pain. But as soon as the electorate sees any form of pain, they immediately go “NO! ELECT THE OTHERS RIGHT NOW!” and seek to “punish” the incumbent Government, even if they’ve only been there for five minutes.

And so nobody ever fixes the actual, serious problems because they’re all too focused on short term electoral ambitions over long term outcomes.
 


Withdean South Stand

Well-known member
Mar 2, 2014
658
The polling position ultimately shows why nobody ever gets anything serious done in this country. Whether you agree with what Labour are doing or not, the justification they would give is that it is about long term outcomes for short term pain. But as soon as the electorate sees any form of pain, they immediately go “NO! ELECT THE OTHERS RIGHT NOW!” and seek to “punish” the incumbent Government, even if they’ve only been there for five minutes.

And so nobody ever fixes the actual, serious problems because they’re all too focused on short term electoral ambitions over long term outcomes.
And that is exactly why I am pleased that Starmer seemingly isn't interested in the polling at all. It doesn't matter right now. The country is a shambles, Europe is the weakest it has been since the end of World War 2 and a maniac is about to be sworn in as US President for a second time, hellbent on disrupting the global economy. What the UK needs right now isn't someone pandering to the public (Johnson), a rabbit in the headlights (Sunak) or a domestic terrorist (Truss). It needs someone to get on with doing the work and to hell with what happens in the 2029 General Election.
 




dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,756
Yeah I don't really have an answer :shrug:

That case is difficult. He's committed, and is serving time for, a horrendous crime. Does that crime remove or diminish his rights as a human being? The judges think not and not being anything close to an expert in any legal matters I can't argue. I know personally I think rapists are right down there with the lowest of the low. But I'm not a judge.
Of course it diminishes his rights as a human being. He has lost the right to walk the streets, for example. We can think about how much of his human rights he should lose, but if we try to argue that he should not lose any, then we are arguing that criminals should never be sent to jail.
 


BBassic

I changed this.
Jul 28, 2011
13,306
Of course it diminishes his rights as a human being. He has lost the right to walk the streets, for example. We can think about how much of his human rights he should lose, but if we try to argue that he should not lose any, then we are arguing that criminals should never be sent to jail.
Yes, I meant "does his crime mean that he should be sent back to a place where he would be persecuted"

Poorly worded
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
57,491
Faversham
The polling position ultimately shows why nobody ever gets anything serious done in this country. Whether you agree with what Labour are doing or not, the justification they would give is that it is about long term outcomes for short term pain. But as soon as the electorate sees any form of pain, they immediately go “NO! ELECT THE OTHERS RIGHT NOW!” and seek to “punish” the incumbent Government, even if they’ve only been there for five minutes.

And so nobody ever fixes the actual, serious problems because they’re all too focused on short term electoral ambitions over long term outcomes.
Yep. All that.

Have I mentioned that the people always get the governments they deserve?
I think I have mentioned it.
From time to time.

A majority of the electorate view politics and elections in much the same way they view parking restrictions and traffic wardens.
Politicians are there simply to con the public for their own benefit.
So if you can winkle something out of them (a tax cut or some other freebie) then you may give them your vote.

It is completely pathetic and symptomatic of the general passivity of people.
You have to step back and consider what a party is 'all about', surely?
What political phenotype best fits your disposition?
Engage, FFS!

Plenty of people who post on the NSC politics thread do indeed engage.
It is perfectly reasonable to vote for the champions of the small state and low tax...
and taking personal responsibility for health and education via private provision.
And it is perfectly reasonable to vote for the champions of collective bargaining . . .
and social service provision and higher taxes.

But with a large percentage of voters with "victim of traffic warden" mentality....
you can't blame politicians when they 'compromise with the electorate'.
And deal in soundbites and spin.

Did I mention that the people get the governments they deserve?
Thought I had, but never mind...
 
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portslade seagull

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2003
18,125
portslade
Let's be honest they are not going to change much in 6 months so pointless moaning. It will probably be around 2yrs b4 any real benefits are seen. Just give them time.
 


Rdodge30

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2022
917
The polling position ultimately shows why nobody ever gets anything serious done in this country. Whether you agree with what Labour are doing or not, the justification they would give is that it is about long term outcomes for short term pain. But as soon as the electorate sees any form of pain, they immediately go “NO! ELECT THE OTHERS RIGHT NOW!” and seek to “punish” the incumbent Government, even if they’ve only been there for five minutes.

And so nobody ever fixes the actual, serious problems because they’re all too focused on short term electoral ambitions over long term outcomes.


Not really.


Tories won 4 on the trot, then Labour won 3 on the trot, then the Tories won another 4 on the trot
 


Commander

Arrogant Prat
NSC Patron
Apr 28, 2004
13,730
London
The polling position ultimately shows why nobody ever gets anything serious done in this country. Whether you agree with what Labour are doing or not, the justification they would give is that it is about long term outcomes for short term pain. But as soon as the electorate sees any form of pain, they immediately go “NO! ELECT THE OTHERS RIGHT NOW!” and seek to “punish” the incumbent Government, even if they’ve only been there for five minutes.

And so nobody ever fixes the actual, serious problems because they’re all too focused on short term electoral ambitions over long term outcomes.
Yep. No different to ‘sack the Manager because we’ve lost some games of football’.

The general public are idiots, unfortunately.
 




jcdenton08

Joel Veltman Fan Club
NSC Patron
Oct 17, 2008
15,642
The polling position ultimately shows why nobody ever gets anything serious done in this country. Whether you agree with what Labour are doing or not, the justification they would give is that it is about long term outcomes for short term pain. But as soon as the electorate sees any form of pain, they immediately go “NO! ELECT THE OTHERS RIGHT NOW!” and seek to “punish” the incumbent Government, even if they’ve only been there for five minutes.

And so nobody ever fixes the actual, serious problems because they’re all too focused on short term electoral ambitions over long term outcomes.
Absolutely this.

But I do wish they’d learn to better communicate what they’re doing, and further wish they’d have taken their time and not hit everything like a ton of bricks. I understand the ripping the plaster can work to give time for the electorate to forget, but it’s possible with say WFA to announce the plan, then introduce it the following year after properly costing and prepping people for it. Which is of course exactly what they should’ve done.
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
21,243
Deepest, darkest Sussex
 


Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
70,523
Withdean area


It’s largely dependent on Trump’s protectionism. He’s not even in power yet. If he punishes the ROW with tariffs, inflation in the US, recession for exporting nations, is highly likely.

Far too early to call based on a few days before real world events.

[Underlining how any UK government is subject to global events. The same with CV19, Putin, oil and gas prices].
 






jcdenton08

Joel Veltman Fan Club
NSC Patron
Oct 17, 2008
15,642
Yes. He’s a rapist. Send him back.
I don’t know if you’re being flippant or ironic, but this is how I actually feel. One forgoes personal liberties when they commit heinous crimes. This individual is Jamaican, he is their responsibility.
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
21,243
Deepest, darkest Sussex
It’s largely dependent on Trump’s protectionism. He’s not even in power yet. If he punishes the ROW with tariffs, inflation in the US, recession for exporting nations, is highly likely.

Far too early to call based on a few days before real world events.

[Underlining how any UK government is subject to global events. The same with CV19, Putin, oil and gas prices].
Absolutely 100% agree, was really underlining alongside my other post from yesterday on focusing on the short term as opposed to the longer term actions, and that for all the hysteria (both in the press and in various threads on here) about how everything is crashing down and it's all Reeves / Starmer to blame that actually all that got wiped out in a single morning, which suggests there was not, in fact, the mass panic many were trying to claim
 






rippleman

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2011
5,063

But it clearly doesn't. If the bit I can read were actually true, Starmer would have supported a ceasefire in Gaza from the outset. He most certainly didn't and was more than happy for the extreme right wing State of Israel to continue with its genocide and murder tens of thousands of women and children.

 


Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
70,523
Withdean area
Absolutely 100% agree, was really underlining alongside my other post from yesterday on focusing on the short term as opposed to the longer term actions, and that for all the hysteria (both in the press and in various threads on here) about how everything is crashing down and it's all Reeves / Starmer to blame that actually all that got wiped out in a single morning, which suggests there was not, in fact, the mass panic many were trying to claim

I agree. I follow these things always with a global eye (unusual on nsc!). As swap rates rose sharply, the US was worse and other nations were in the same ball-park.

I extend this to any UK government, blue, red or coalition. When party politicised others seem to ignore the true causes of; CV19, Putin, energy market or Trump. A recent radio show pointed out they we comprise just 3% of the global economy.
 
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