[Misc] Electric Cars

dsr-burnley · Thursday at 11:36 AM

Greg Bobkin said:
A bit more debunking (sort of) one of the major criticisms that people have about EVs: https://fleetworld.co.uk/ev-diary-36-hours-with-a-dacia-spring/

TL;DR: with a bit of planning and patience, it's not that bad.

No-one (apart from seriously concerned ecologists) is going to buy a Dacia Spring, or any other slow charging, low range electric car, for distance travelling because there is no reason to buy "not that bad" when "very good" is available at a cheaper price. These sort of electric cars are designed for people who either never drive a long way or who have a second car. To review it for long range travel is like trying to review a Ford Tourneo as a removal van - it isn't suited for the purpose because it's not meant to be.

I suppose that review might be of relevance for someone who likes a small electric but wishes to know it can be used for long distance in a non-emergency circumstance, but it's never going to be used for that regularly.

Blues Guitarist · Thursday at 11:54 AM

Interesting observation on EV range. I have a long range (87 kwh) Renault Scenic e-tech. When I drive it in ECO more, which restricts top speed to 115 km/h, I get about 600 km on a full charge on long motorway journeys. Changing the top speed to 130 km/h drops the range to about 450 km.

As far as I can tell, driving style around town and on A roads makes little difference to range, but this relatively small change to motorway top speed (which makes surprisingly little difference in elapsed time on longer trips) eats eletricity.

Greg Bobkin · Thursday at 12:02 PM

dsr-burnley said:
No-one (apart from seriously concerned ecologists) is going to buy a Dacia Spring, or any other slow charging, low range electric car, for distance travelling because there is no reason to buy "not that bad" when "very good" is available at a cheaper price. These sort of electric cars are designed for people who either never drive a long way or who have a second car. To review it for long range travel is like trying to review a Ford Tourneo as a removal van - it isn't suited for the purpose because it's not meant to be.

I suppose that review might be of relevance for someone who likes a small electric but wishes to know it can be used for long distance in a non-emergency circumstance, but it's never going to be used for that regularly.

Well done for simultaneously missing the point of the piece and then completely getting the point in your second paragraph :lolol:

Did you miss this bit: 'Let’s face it, a Dacia Spring is not going to be a daily driver up the country and back. But in town, which is where I popped to the next morning, it is great.'?

dsr-burnley · Thursday at 2:18 PM

Greg Bobkin said:
Well done for simultaneously missing the point of the piece and then completely getting the point in your second paragraph

Did you miss this bit: 'Let’s face it, a Dacia Spring is not going to be a daily driver up the country and back. But in town, which is where I popped to the next morning, it is great.'?

First paragraph was replying to you, not the copied article.

Greg Bobkin · Thursday at 4:03 PM

dsr-burnley said:
First paragraph was replying to you, not the copied article.

Again, that was one of the main points of the story! You don't need to explain that to me – I wrote the facking thing :lolol:

MikeHimself · Thursday at 4:05 PM

chickens said:
We literally collected ours at the start of December, so we’re only two weeks in F We’re aware that by driving it off the forecourt we’ve immediately lost money, but while I argued for used, I was overruled. We’ve only put 622 miles on it so far, but it’s done motorway, country lanes and city traffic, and behaved itself in all of

You can pick up 2-3yo models for £20k, though main dealer prices will probably add a couple of grand to that. Now is a great time to go and haggle with the dealers if she’s interested, if they’ve got inventory, they’ll want rid before the new one’s out.

I’d also just ask if she has a place to charge? They’re not expensive to run even if you charge solely away from home, but you only save meaningful sums of money if you can home charge.

We’re lucky to have owned an MSZS EV trophy long range for a couple of years. One of the best places to buy them is new-car-discount.com where the Trophy long range is currently (sorry ) £26,111 delivered to your door. It will do 200 miles in winter, 250 miles in summer for mixed driving. They are an internet dealer who source from other dealers. They can offer lease or HP as usual. We’ve bought many vans and cars through them over the years, excellent service and no, I’m not on a commission unfortunately as they work by word of mouth.

MikeHimself · Thursday at 4:15 PM

AlbionBro said:
What is your view on the MG ZS Electric, my lady friend is quite keen, are they good value for money?

I just replied to Chickens on this thread. Crikey that reads weird.
if you don’t want the SUV shape and are OK with a hatchback then new-car-discounted.com have those at just over £27,000 for the extended range version with HP and lease options. if you can install a home charger the saving on fuel, servicing will help to offset the depreciation, especially if you buy it at £10,000 off list price to start with.

nicko31 · Thursday at 4:40 PM

Blues Guitarist said:
Interesting observation on EV range. I have a long range (87 kwh) Renault Scenic e-tech. When I drive it in ECO more, which restricts top speed to 115 km/h, I get about 600 km on a full charge on long motorway journeys. Changing the top speed to 130 km/h drops the range to about 450 km.

As far as I can tell, driving style around town and on A roads makes little difference to range, but this relatively small change to motorway top speed (which makes surprisingly little difference in elapsed time on longer trips) eats eletricity.

Totally agree on motorway driving, stick your foot and the range is trashed.

Audax · Thursday at 4:46 PM

LamieRobertson said:
A mere £20k

Yep. The gap is closing, though.

I remember looking at Zero motorcycles a few years back and backing away rapidly. For two reasons: the £20k+ price tag (when I could get a decent sports-tourer for under £10k); and the complete lack of any usable range for distance riding.

Looked again recently. An entry level Zero is still just over £20k new. But the range is now pretty much identical to my current ICE bike, and an equivalent ICE bike to replace it would now be more like £13k to £14k.

All of which means ... it's becoming increasingly likely that my next motorcycle will be electric. But that's a few years away.

Audax · Thursday at 4:53 PM

Blues Guitarist said:
Interesting observation on EV range. I have a long range (87 kwh) Renault Scenic e-tech. When I drive it in ECO more, which restricts top speed to 115 km/h, I get about 600 km on a full charge on long motorway journeys. Changing the top speed to 130 km/h drops the range to about 450 km.

As far as I can tell, driving style around town and on A roads makes little difference to range, but this relatively small change to motorway top speed (which makes surprisingly little difference in elapsed time on longer trips) eats eletricity.

It's been a while since I've seen km/h cited

. 115 km/h is pretty much all that's needed unless you're enjoying a German autobahn. Certainly over in Australia, the legal speed limits top out at 110 km/h so you'd be able to leave it permanently in Eco mode.

My experience in the Zoe I had was that driving style did make a difference around town / A roads. There was a noticeable difference between the range numbers I could get vs my wife's. I suspect the key difference being that I adapted very rapidly to B-mode one-pedal driving style, which I don't think my wife has even 4 years later. Not noticed a difference with the ID3 as yet, but the way it tracks mileage is different and we've not got even 1500 miles under the wheels yet.

In terms of motorway driving - the best mileage I ever got out of the Zoe was on my motorway commutes. Topped out at 5.6 m/kWh in ideal conditions. But it was always better than what I would get doing dinky little trips in town (countryside town, not city).

AlbionBro · Thursday at 4:54 PM

MikeHimself said:
I just replied to Chickens on this thread. Crikey that reads weird.
if you don’t want the SUV shape and are OK with a hatchback then new-car-discounted.com have those at just over £27,000 for the extended range version with HP and lease options. if you can install a home charger the saving on fuel, servicing will help to offset the depreciation, especially if you buy it at £10,000 off list price to start with.

Thanks for this, I am concerned about the depreciation, do you have any idea how much it will depreciate in two years if we do about 20,000 miles in that time frame?

Audax · Thursday at 5:01 PM

AlbionBro said:
Thanks for this, I am concerned about the depreciation, do you have any idea how much it will depreciate in two years if we do about 20,000 miles in that time frame?

4 year old Zoe's that have done between 30k and 50k miles can be picked up second hand for around £9k. Depending on model, they'd have cost £30k-ish new.

But I know the Zoe depreciated more than others. The e208 Pugs, for example, retained their value a little better.

AlbionBro · Thursday at 5:05 PM

Audax said:
4 year old Zoe's that have done between 30k and 50k miles can be picked up second hand for around £9k. Depending on model, they'd have cost £30k-ish new.

But I know the Zoe depreciated more than others. The e208 Pugs, for example, retained their value a little better.

Thanks, that is a massive amount, not sure we can waste that much money, that quickly. Sorry to question you, but are you in car sales?

Audax · Thursday at 5:08 PM

AlbionBro said:
Thanks, that is a massive amount, not sure we can waste that much money, that quickly. Sorry to question you, but are you in car sales?

Nope. I just had a Zoe (on lease) for 4 years and did a little research earlier this year on how best to replace it when it rolled out of lease. One of the options was looking to buy a second one. Then my employer gave me the option of salary sacrifice, which opened the door to a new ID3 (3 year lease with option to buy at the end, with all costs other the electricity covered during the 3 years).

Blues Guitarist · Thursday at 5:46 PM

Audax said:
It's been a while since I've seen km/h cited . 115 km/h is pretty much all that's needed unless you're enjoying a German autobahn.

You guessed it. My regular journey is up to Munich, mainly on German Autobahns.

MikeHimself · Thursday at 7:53 PM

AlbionBro said:
Thanks for this, I am concerned about the depreciation, do you have any idea how much it will depreciate in two years if we do about 20,000 miles in that time frame?

MikeHimself · Thursday at 8:02 PM

Autotrader and the AA websites have MGZS EV Trophy long range models around the £16000 mark so you would get a bit less a private seller. If you bought the car new at the discounted price of £26000 the you would be looking at around £10000 depreciation over the 2 years.
Of course most of the depreciation is in the first year, it tapers off after that but will likely increase again as the car’s battery approaches the end of its warranty period.

AlbionBro · Thursday at 8:13 PM

MikeHimself said:
Autotrader and the AA websites have MGZS EV Trophy long range models around the £16000 mark so you would get a bit less a private seller. If you bought the car new at the discounted price of £26000 the you would be looking at around £10000 depreciation over the 2 years.
Of course most of the depreciation is in the first year, it tapers off after that but will likely increase again as the car’s battery approaches the end of its warranty period.

Thanks for your help, my lady friend is now going off the boil regarding buying an electric car. She wants to wait a couple of years now! What can you do!

dsr-burnley · Thursday at 11:38 PM

AlbionBro said:
Thanks for this, I am concerned about the depreciation, do you have any idea how much it will depreciate in two years if we do about 20,000 miles in that time frame?

One of the problems in assessing depreciation is that we don't know how much the technology is going to improve. The more the tech improves, the greater the depreciation on the older cars. (On the other hand if some vital raw material is in short supply, then the older cars will depreciate much less.)

Audax · Friday at 10:28 AM

dsr-burnley said:
One of the problems in assessing depreciation is that we don't know how much the technology is going to improve. The more the tech improves, the greater the depreciation on the older cars. (On the other hand if some vital raw material is in short supply, then the older cars will depreciate much less.)

Also depends on how quickly / slowly the general opinion / appetite for EVs shifts in wider society. Depreciation is closely linked to second hand demand, which for EVs is pretty low at the moment due to lingering suspicion in society around how well (or not) the battery lasts. There will come a point when those suspicions smooth away and demand for second hand EVs will pick up, that will drive higher prices on second hand EVs, and reduce depreciation on new models.

Gawd knows when it'll happen. We're going through a phase where demand for new EVs is still stronger than demand for second hand, and that may be exacerbated in coming years as the ICE ban on new cars approaches.

And, as mentioned, there's the new technology factor. We're still in the rapid R&D phase for EVs (similar to how personal computers were accelerating so fast in the 80's that a computer bought today would be obsolete within months), which means a lot of people aren't committing to long term ownership yet while they wait on new tech that's known to be coming (things like solid state batteries, viable home V2X, etc).

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[Misc] Electric Cars

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