[Food] The Great British Dilemma

dazzer6666 · Sunday at 8:00 AM

sussex_guy2k2 said:
I’ve had this conversation multiple times before. I hate service charges anywhere. I’m very much a believer that you should charge someone for the whole price of something and pay your staff properly.

I also don’t think I’ve ever experienced great service in restaurants, even when abroad in places like Italy and the US, where the service industry is either more respected, or where they expect much higher %s for service charges. I don’t think I can even tell you what great service looks like. Is it a particularly smiley service person? Someone who talks to us a lot? Someone that recommends food? Wine? Or someone that deals with problems with food well, without fuss? Sometimes, doing some of these things can detract from the meal. Although we can all tell what bad service looks like, of course.

But in terms of how I deal with that knowledge and those feelings, I tend to work on the basis that I will just pay it if the service charge is 10-12.5%, unless the service is really not good (and I’ve no problem telling someone if it isn’t - however, I’ll have told them if there’s a problem long before paying the bill). I work in America fairly frequently and avoid eating out there as I despise the 20-40% charges you’re expected to pay in some places and the attitudes you can get from some of their service staff, but the above rates in England are fine. If it goes beyond that, I’ll tell them what I’m comfortable paying. If they have a problem with that, I’m more than happy talking to management or leaving reviews - although the former has only happened twice in my lifetime where really bad service was followed by an expectation that I paid a service charge of 30% (got to love the US…).

I find in England, most service staff just stay out of the way, and I like that. So for 10%, it’s usually not worth arguing the toss over just because they may be a bit tired from a long shift on rubbish pay.

Service charges (tips) are higher in the US because the staff get little or no wages and rely on them to get paid - nothing to do with the industry being more respected imo. Try leaving a US restaurant without leaving a (to us at least) very generous tip………bills will often come with 3 ‘suggested’ tips - the lowest of these will be 20% in many places now.

Australia is much more a model of respected service in my experience. Very little tipping culture at all, because the minimum wage is good.

I’m going to the US next week :down:

sussex_guy2k2 · Sunday at 8:03 AM

dazzer6666 said:
Service charges (tips) are higher in the US because the staff get little or no wages and rely on them to get paid - nothing to do with the industry being more respected imo. Try leaving a US restaurant without leaving a (to us at least) very generous tip………bills will often come with 3 ‘suggested’ tips - the lowest of these will be 20% in many places now.

Australia is much more a model of respected service in my experience. Very little tipping culture at all, because the minimum wage is good.

I’m going to the US next week

Same in Italy. They respect their service staff because they respect their food. Whereas food in the US is the worst in the world from my experience. In Japan it’s considered rude to tip.

Saying that, the food in the US isn’t relatively cheaper to account for the poor pay that staff get, and that’s where the issue arises. If I get a poor meal (which I do, rather often there, because their food is s**t), then it’s really difficult to tip properly.

Luckily, I often go for work so it’s company money and not worth the argument.

ElectricNaz · Sunday at 8:46 AM

There's a hotel in London, it's the former hard rock, think it's called the Cumberland or something now by marble arch.

Was sat at their sports bar watching football. Every drink I ordered whilst sat AT THE BAR, they added 12.5% to on the bill (£7 a pint so another 86p). So each time I had to ask them to remove it, they'd have to go and take it off the bill and come back before I paid.

They questioned why I wasn't happy to pay it, it baffled me that they didn't understand you don't add service charge when someone is sat at the bar ordering a drink because the barman only has to take one or maybe two steps to the left and pour a pint. I said normally at the end of the night someone might choose to hand over some cash as a tip with the last drink, but it shouldn't be mandatory.

Obvs I get it for table service. Just thought that was a bit cheeky for someone sat at the bar!

The Antikythera Mechanism · Sunday at 8:50 AM

I think that the waiting staffs reaction was probably due to trepidation in anticipation of an incoming, scathing Tripadvisor review.

Papak · Sunday at 8:54 AM

studio150 said:
Given that the service charge is basically to cover service, which you received, but wasn't that poor that you would ask for it to be removed from the bill, I would have not said anything about it to the waitress, and just have settled the bill.

I would then probably for the next couple of months mention it to friends and say we aren't looking to return anytime soon.

Hopefully your food tastes just as good next week.

If you have a genuine grievance then absolutely raise it but doing this does not give the establishment an opportunity to receive, acknowledge and act on the feedback.

For me the service would have to be particularly terrible for me to comment and if that was the case I wouldn't wait until the bill arrived to raise it.

nickbrighton · Sunday at 9:03 AM

Service charge is discretionary, unless otherwise stated, usually for large groups. This trend of tipping for everything is awful,Whilst I am normally happy to leave something if the service has been good, I certainly wouldn't consider leaving anything if its not, and no way am I paying added service charge at the bar for someone whose job it is to serve drinks at the bar, unless they have done something "extra" to warrant it. In the USA its different as employees rely on tips as part of their wages-not so in the UK

The expectation of a tip annoys me no end. I usually do leave tips at restaurants because, tbh, service is usually pretty good but to automatically add it to the bill for a couple on a normal night out not wanting anything out of the ordinary usually makes me inclined to not pay extra

dazzer6666 · Sunday at 9:08 AM

ElectricNaz said:
There's a hotel in London, it's the former hard rock, think it's called the Cumberland or something now by marble arch.

Was sat at their sports bar watching football. Every drink I ordered whilst sat AT THE BAR, they added 12.5% to on the bill (£7 a pint so another 86p). So each time I had to ask them to remove it, they'd have to go and take it off the bill and come back before I paid.

They questioned why I wasn't happy to pay it, it baffled me that they didn't understand you don't add service charge when someone is sat at the bar ordering a drink because the barman only has to take one or maybe two steps to the left and pour a pint. I said normally at the end of the night someone might choose to hand over some cash as a tip with the last drink, but it shouldn't be mandatory.

Obvs I get it for table service. Just thought that was a bit cheeky for someone sat at the bar!

Shouldn’t happen here….US, fine, it’s accepted practice

BNthree · Sunday at 9:16 AM

I’d have probably said nothing to the staff but emailed in the next day to let them know.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sunday at 9:18 AM

You did

Bozza said:
So, this was tonight...

Dinner out in Worthing at <REDACTED>.

The food was great. The drinks were great. Service was meh. But I love the restaurant and will return. In fact, I have another booking for a week tonight.

Between the bill arriving and the waitress coming to take payment, we were discussing the meal and the service. As above, we agreed the food was great, but the service was lacking. Well, maybe not lacking but just a bit perfunctory. It was going through the motions. No warmth at all at any point.

So, when the waitress asked "how was everything?", I had the great dilemma - did I say "Yes, everything was fantastic" or did I say "We really loved the food and drink, but the service felt a bit off tonight"?

I committed the great British crime by doing the latter. This led to an obviously awkward conversation. I explained the food and drink were great, but we felt like we were a bit of an inconvenience to the waiting staff. We sat down at 9 - I don't think anyone arrived after us - although there were other tables present whilst we were paying.

The waitress offered to take the service charge off the bill, but I said I was happy to pay it, which I did.

After we'd paid, the waitress retreated to her colleagues, and clearly immediately shared what I'd said. There was a lot of defensive body language going on, and I couldn't wait to stand up, face their way, and thank them.

I stood, I thanked, and people wanted me to die on the spot.

But, ya know, what do you do? Be British and say "everything was great!" when it wasn't, or try to be constructive.

Regardless, there's going to be flob in my food next week...

You did the right thing. You did it politely.

Let's see whether there is an improvement next time.

Twelve years ago I had lunch in a self-regarding pub restaurant in Hampstead (could be The Flsk, which used to be a decent pub). We waited 20 minutes for the bill, despite waving at the occasionally-present waiter.

We waited another 20 minutes for him to collect the payment.
Exasperated, we decided to go down stairs and pay at the bar.

Walking down the stairs the waiter saw us from a distance and.... waved us goodbye. WTF?
I went to the bar.

There were no customers. Two staff stood chatting and wiping glasses. I stood there for a minute.
Then another minute. I 'excuse me'd them. No response.
So we left.

A week later someone phoned me in my office. Yes it was the pub/restaurant. They accused me of leaving without paying.
I explained I made every effort to pay but the staff were too lazy, and preoccupied by f*** all, to take payment.
We eventually agreed that I would not be visiting them again.
Like, that would be a punishment for me. :shootself

Honestly, some pub/restaurants are an embarrassment. I have one worse story but I'll just get upset recounting it, and I don't like getting upset on match day. Catch you later, maybe :thumbsup:

Papak · Sunday at 9:24 AM

sussex_guy2k2 said:
I don’t think I can even tell you what great service looks like.

I suspect this is because it varies by individual and by circumstances.

For me it is probably being left alone until the beer in my glass is almost gone and then being asked if I would like another by the staff and it arriving promptly. Something so simple seems to be so difficult to get.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sunday at 9:25 AM

Rdodge30 said:
We’ve all been mugged off for decades with tipping, I see reels of fast food delivery drivers guilting out people for not tipping.

Automatic service charges are outrageous behaviour… your tip has automatically been added to your bill but you can remove it if you so choose ??…. How do we come to accept such rudeness as standard practice?

My own personal tipping tends to fluctuate more in line with my own financial situation than anything else- my most common tips are the change when I’m paying cash in a breakfast cafe

The last time I tipped someone was this year when the sewer drain behind one of my shops was blocked. It’s a shared drain with the flats upstairs who were unquestionably responsible for blocking it but rather than argue the case with them I simply got the drainage bloke out on a Sunday morning… thinking the situation was close to a disaster zone and he had the job done in 40minutes UNBELIEVABLE! He charged me £200 and I gave him £20 for coming out on a Sunday.

As for mentioning indifferenct service in a restaurant, highly unlikely unless the waiting staff had been rude, in which case I would call it there and then

Since automatic service charging has become the norm, and the use of cash a thing of the past, I rarely give a tip these days. Just waft the card or phone, and leave.

I may leave a cash tip if served by one person, but not if different people have sat us down, asked if we want water, taken the order, delivered the food, cleared the table and presented the bill. In some places this could involve four or more people.

But I am extremely picky where I eat out for an actual meal, and never go back to somewhere I didn't like.

PascalGroß Tips · Sunday at 9:28 AM

nickbrighton said:
Service charge is discretionary, unless otherwise stated, usually for large groups. This trend of tipping for everything is awful,Whilst I am normally happy to leave something if the service has been good, I certainly wouldn't consider leaving anything if its not, and no way am I paying added service charge at the bar for someone whose job it is to serve drinks at the bar, unless they have done something "extra" to warrant it. In the USA its different as employees rely on tips as part of their wages-not so in the UK

The expectation of a tip annoys me no end. I usually do leave tips at restaurants because, tbh, service is usually pretty good but to automatically add it to the bill for a couple on a normal night out not wanting anything out of the ordinary usually makes me inclined to not pay extra

I'm broadly similar on this. We do tip - usually 10% if service has been good - but I do struggle to understand why it's the norm to leave a percentage tip. You could have two tables adjacent to each other in a restaurant - ordering the same number of dishes and drinks. The waiting staff making the same number of visits to the table. But because one table ordered a decent bottle of wine versus a cheaper drink option - and fillet steak versus a cheaper menu option, the level of expected tip based on a percentage could be vastly different.

I have, on a few occasions, asked restaurants to remove the tip they automatically put on the bill. But this was after raising the issue of very poor service during the course of the meal.

We holiday a lot in Greece (mainland and islands). Tipping in tavernas is not a big or expected thing - especially as they are generally family run with most of the staff being family. If anything, you just round up the bill by a few euros - maybe up to 5 euros. Locals generally don't tip.

tedebear · Sunday at 9:29 AM

This is one of the most annoying things about the British that does my nana. Your British stiff upper lip allows people to get away with poor or less than appropriate behaviour as you simply cannot abide conflict, go out of your way to ignore it and respond with "its fine" type platitudes. So I'm pleased you mentioned it in the nicest possible way. Better than lobbing some feedback on social media long after it is done when the organisation has no chance to talk to you face to face.

Rdodge30 · Sunday at 9:34 AM

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
ut I am extremely picky where I eat out for an actual meal, and never go back to somewhere I didn't like.

Same as that but mainly based on the standard of the food more than the service.. and I will go back eventually because I think the standards change with the changing of chefs not owners necessarily

I’m pretty low maintenance service wise… can’t stand people constantly interrupting my meal to ask me if everything is ok

Triggaaar · Sunday at 9:39 AM

I'd like to hear their side of the story, so quite looking forward to the Enrest thread.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sunday at 9:43 AM

bhafc99 said:
Rather than directly saying "the service was a bit off", you could have tried something like "the atmosphere was a bit flat compared to our previous visits – are you guys short-staffed tonight, or over-worked with the Christmas period...?"

Lets them know they didn't really deliver good service, but in a way that doesn't sound so critical – and in fact 'feigns understanding/sympathy' to make them (hopefully) feel a tad guilty.

I understand what you mean, but I personally hate it when people, do this to me.

"The feedback you gave the student was very clear. Going forward you may like to think about capturing a more constructive message, for example explaining what they could do to get a better mark".

This is after I have written 200 words explaining in granular detail how the student has not addressed the question (I could have said "why not answer the question next time")....

included incorrect facts (I could have asked "have you thought about not making up shit, next time?")....

created a perverse narrative (perhaps I should have said "going forward, please remember that treating this heart condition could be approached by giving drugs that act on the involved organ and its processes, rather than by 'making the arsehole bigger' like what you wrote")....

and has used suboptimal English (I perhaps should have told them "Please learn how to use basic English. Why not read a f***ing newspaper? Get used to how English people express themselves in their native tongue. Yes I realise that English is your native tongue, but have you though about not covering your tongue with Golden Syrup and 100s and 1000s before using it to inform your work? No. I thought not")....

See. I can be extremely constructive.

A mex eyecan · Sunday at 9:58 AM

The Antikythera Mechanism said:
I think that the waiting staffs reaction was probably due to trepidation in anticipation of an incoming, scathing Tripadvisor review.

or could have been that he/she has some heavy shit going on in their life, maybe having received some terrible news about a loved one a while before going on shift but can’t afford to pull out of their shift because they’re skint?

Bry Nylon · Sunday at 10:09 AM

Rdodge30 said:
I’m pretty low maintenance service wise… can’t stand people constantly interrupting my meal to ask me if everything is ok

Sorry to intrude but how are you enjoying the thread? Would you like a complimentary attachment? Or perhaps Sir would like to take a look at the emoji menu?

Zeberdi · Sunday at 10:14 AM

People who aren’t happy with minimum service and a lack of attention should eat Indian.

’Leave us alone and stop interrupting us!!’ springs to mind when I think of Indian restaurant.

Monday at our staff night out at a local Indian, I think our waiter came to the table about 10-15 times flapping around with glasses, cutlery, removing side plates, bringing side dishes, repeatedly asking ask us if ‘everything is OK, ‘are we enjoying our food?!’ ‘Do you have everyrhing?!’ etc etc He was watching us and hovering around us, smiling, nodding, ready to pounce at the slightest hint we needed anything - all very attentive and accommodating of course.

Given me a grumpy, non-communicative waitress having a bad day anytime as long as the food is good - but LET ME EAT!

Cheeky Monkey · Sunday at 10:23 AM

tedebear said:
This is one of the most annoying things about the British that does my nana. Your British stiff upper lip allows people to get away with poor or less than appropriate behaviour as you simply cannot abide conflict, go out of your way to ignore it and respond with "its fine" type platitudes. So I'm pleased you mentioned it in the nicest possible way. Better than lobbing some feedback on social media long after it is done when the organisation has no chance to talk to you face to face.

Very true, but I'd always be wary of doing it in a restaurant, especially if it resulted in the food going back, for obvious reasons.

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