[Politics] The Labour Government

nicko31 · Dec 3, 2024

Is it PotG? said:
Yup, they're all the bloody same.

I disagree

Labour are not perfect but they are at least doing what they believe is best for the country and are acting in good faith.

The post Brexit iteration of the Tories main objective was to reward themselves and their cronies from the public coffers. We are about to see a more extreme version of this business model exercised in the US

BadFish · Dec 3, 2024

nicko31 said:
I disagree

Labour are not perfect but they are at least doing what they believe is best for the country and are acting in good faith.

The post Brexit iteration of the Tories main objective was to reward themselves and their cronies from the public coffers. We are about to see a more extreme version of this business model exercised in the US

The pre Brexit iteration' main objective was to make ordinary working people pay for the 2008 financial crisis. Ensuring that no one responsible for it should pay.

As you say, they are certainly not the same. But the Tories will be happy if this narrative is swallowed by enough people.

I am sure they will continue to reward their loyal supporters (as long as they are rich of course).

Go blue team!!

dsr-burnley · Dec 3, 2024

nicko31 said:
I disagree

Labour are not perfect but they are at least doing what they believe is best for the country and are acting in good faith.

The post Brexit iteration of the Tories main objective was to reward themselves and their cronies from the public coffers. We are about to see a more extreme version of this business model exercised in the US

The Chagos Islands scandal isn't about acting in good faith. All they are trying to do with that is shuffle the responsibility for the appalling treatment of the Chagossian people onto Mauritius, at great expense to the UK, so that when someone says "what about the human rights of the displaced Chagossians", the government can say "mowt to do with us".

They think they are being anti-colonialist by transferring ownership of the islands to someone else. But there is nothing anti-colonialist about transferring the ownership of land from one distant realm to another, without so much as considering the wishes of the rightful occupants. It's pure age of empire.

Rdodge30 · Dec 3, 2024

nicko31 said:
Labour are not perfect but they are at least doing what they believe is best for the country and are acting in good faith.

Either they have acted in bad faith after their lengthy courting of the business sector pre election or they genuinely didn’t know what they were going to do once in power

They can not be any worse than the previous government, on that we agree- but we are setting the bar incredibly low there and to be honest, I’m not convinced by this Government yet.

Machiavelli · Dec 3, 2024

Is it PotG? said:
I think where we differ might be in the constant plucking random figures as a promise in order to get elected.

To then later say 'Ah well, we got nearly 2/3 of the way' is simply taking the mickey.

Any research or consultation would have shown this was pie in the sky.

Nah. They've set out some missions, and are in the process of setting out some milestones to evaluate progress. The whole point is to try to restore trust in politics, by not over-promising and under-delivering (recall migration in the tens of thousands, levelling-up, 40 new hospitals, etc). They're happy to be judged on that. I suspect they'll fall short on some of those missions, but fair play for setting things out clearly.

Weststander · Dec 3, 2024

Newsnight just now … Caroline Lucas was highly critical of Labour’s first months. Wasted, no vision, poor messaging, the tax rises barely touched the sides unlike a wealth tax, and she briefly mentioned why no interest in rejoining the EU when the 170 majority gives so much scope to do things.

Also expressed a fear that a wasted term would leave the door open to the right should Farage/Badenoch do a deal.

Machiavelli · Dec 4, 2024

Weststander said:
Newsnight just now … Caroline Lucas was highly critical of Labour’s first months. Wasted, no vision, poor messaging, the tax rises barely touched the sides unlike a wealth tax, and she briefly mentioned why no interest in rejoining the EU when the 170 majority gives so much scope to do things.

Also expressed a fear that a wasted term would leave the door open to the right should Farage/Badenoch do a deal.

Well, she would, and I say that as someone who put in a hell of a lot of work to get her elected in the six years leading up to that.

She's categorically wrong on no vision: the mission economy is a departure from the nonsense we've had to endure for the past 40 years, and constitutes: i, an enhanced recognition of the role of the government/state; and, ii, a clear vision of not only the primary problems we're confronted with, but also the solutions and the road to implementing them.

On messaging, this is unarguable, see, for instance the following article (which I'm yet to read) and the responses its generated (which I have read): https://www.theguardian.com/comment...relaunch-government-nigel-farage-donald-trump

As you might be aware, I'm all for the extension of taxes on wealth, but look at the response to Reeves' budget (which is more significant than CL allows), where the hostility of those directly affected matters less, it's far more those that aren't affected but fail to recognise the requirement of a radical shift away from where we've been for so long. You're far more aware than most (and certainly me) that the wealthy can exploit loopholes in a global world full of tax havens and countries seeking tax advantages. I still think there needs to be some sort of post-national, continental, regional, etc coordination in order to address such issues ...

... which feeds into rejoining the EU. Labour are hamstrung on that, as they were on taxation, because of the commitment they gave prior to the election. Many, I included, think that political parties should get behind this but that will be a rocky road which most under-estimate.

And, yes, across so many countries a reconfigured right looks as though its on the march.

Weststander · Dec 4, 2024

Machiavelli said:
Well, she would, and I say that as someone who put in a hell of a lot of work to get her elected in the six years leading up to that.

She's categorically wrong on no vision: the mission economy is a departure from the nonsense we've had to endure for the past 40 years, and constitutes: i, an enhanced recognition of the role of the government/state; and, ii, a clear vision of not only the primary problems we're confronted with, but also the solutions and the road to implementing them.

On messaging, this is unarguable, see, for instance the following article (which I'm yet to read) and the responses its generated (which I have read): https://www.theguardian.com/comment...relaunch-government-nigel-farage-donald-trump

As you might be aware, I'm all for the extension of taxes on wealth, but look at the response to Reeves' budget (which is more significant than CL allows), where the hostility of those directly affected matters less, it's far more those that aren't affected but fail to recognise the requirement of a radical shift away from where we've been for so long. You're far more aware than most (and certainly me) that the wealthy can exploit loopholes in a global world full of tax havens and countries seeking tax advantages. I still think there needs to be some sort of post-national, continental, regional, etc coordination in order to address such issues ...

... which feeds into rejoining the EU. Labour are hamstrung on that, as they were on taxation, because of the commitment they gave prior to the election. Many, I included, think that political parties should get behind this but that will be a rocky road which most under-estimate.

And, yes, across so many countries a reconfigured right looks as though its on the march.

Wealth tax - a nightmare to ascertain the wealth for the truly rich, I think the affected would end up being the low hanging fruit eg older folk in a £1m house with a load of investments. Rather than people with clever arrangements. Council tax at the top end could be an easier solution.

The EU - we’re now guaranteed that nothing truly meaningful will even enter discussions until 2029. Gutting, the years pass by. Not just for our gen, but for people starting off in their careers. I really think Labour should use this opportunity to openly explore Norway or Swiss type deals with the EU. I do recognise the politics …. freedom of movement etc. But it would go down well with an overwhelming majority of the electorate including the marginal seats in Scotland …. for those people who are bothered.

Mellor 3 Ward 4 · Dec 4, 2024

Weststander said:
Wealth tax - a nightmare to ascertain the wealth for the truly rich, I think the affected would end up being the low hanging fruit eg older folk in a £1m house with a load of investments. Rather than people with clever arrangements. Council tax at the top end could be an easier solution.

The EU - we’re now guaranteed that nothing truly meaningful will even enter discussions until 2029. Gutting, the years pass by. Not just for our gen, but for people starting off in their careers. I really think Labour should use this opportunity to openly explore Norway or Swiss type deals with the EU. I do recognise the politics …. freedom of movement etc. But it would go down well with an overwhelming majority of the electorate including the marginal seats in Scotland …. for those people who are bothered.

Agree.

SKS is not interested in even talking about it.

Machiavelli · Dec 4, 2024

Weststander said:
Wealth tax - a nightmare to ascertain the wealth for the truly rich, I think the affected would end up being the low hanging fruit eg older folk in a £1m house with a load of investments. Rather than people with clever arrangements. Council tax at the top end could be an easier solution.

The EU - we’re now guaranteed that nothing truly meaningful will even enter discussions until 2029. Gutting, the years pass by. Not just for our gen, but for people starting off in their careers. I really think Labour should use this opportunity to openly explore Norway or Swiss type deals with the EU. I do recognise the politics …. freedom of movement etc. But it would go down well with an overwhelming majority of the electorate including the marginal seats in Scotland …. for those people who are bothered.

Yes, agree about council tax reform. The Greens have been advocating a Land Value Tax for decades, and that seems a better solution -- although I'm willing to be proved wrong on that one.
EU -- also agreed ...
... all of which points to the need for Labour, Lib Dems, Greens (I'm ruling out the SNP and other nationalist parties) to take stock on what the key priorities are in order to ward off Farage and Badenoch (the key question here is not whether there's a merger, I doubt there will be, but how they approach each other in c30% of constituencies that they'll likely take in the event of both their coordination and the absence of coordination from Lab, LD + G).

Those three parties could recognise that they could develop a programme around a few key issues that would substantially reset the country: rejoining SM, CU, even EU; green transition; PR; substantial tax reform to capture assets rather than labour (including SMEs); and probably some other stuff too

Weststander · Dec 4, 2024

Machiavelli said:
Yes, agree about council tax reform. The Greens have been advocating a Land Value Tax for decades, and that seems a better solution -- although I'm willing to be proved wrong on that one.
EU -- also agreed ...
... all of which points to the need for Labour, Lib Dems, Greens (I'm ruling out the SNP and other nationalist parties) to take stock on what the key priorities are in order to ward off Farage and Badenoch (the key question here is not whether there's a merger, I doubt there will be, but how they approach each other in c30% of constituencies that they'll likely take in the event of both their coordination and the absence of coordination from Lab, LD + G).

Those three parties could recognise that they could develop a programme around a few key issues that would substantially reset the country: rejoining SM, CU, even EU; green transition; PR; substantial tax reform to capture assets rather than labour (including SMEs); and probably some other stuff too

Hopefully FTPT saves us even if Badenoch and Farage do a deal. I know a load of folk with very varied views (a lot through my work), I can only think of two who'd vote for anything remotely Farage.

The main downside of PR .. the inexorable rise of the far right in France, Hungry, Italy, Spain and now Germany. Huge footholds in parliament and decision making.

deletebeepbeepbeep · Dec 4, 2024

Weststander said:
Newsnight just now … Caroline Lucas was highly critical of Labour’s first months. Wasted, no vision, poor messaging, the tax rises barely touched the sides unlike a wealth tax, and she briefly mentioned why no interest in rejoining the EU when the 170 majority gives so much scope to do things.

Also expressed a fear that a wasted term would leave the door open to the right should Farage/Badenoch do a deal.

And she is absolutely right, of course.

Machiavelli · Dec 4, 2024

Weststander said:
Hopefully FTPT saves us even if Badenoch and Farage do a deal. I know a load of folk with very varied views (a lot through my work), I can only think of two who'd vote for anything remotely Farage.

The main downside of PR .. the inexorable rise of the far right in France, Hungry, Italy, Spain and now Germany. Huge footholds in parliament and decision making.

You and I will just have to differ on PR. I'd say the main downside of FPTP is its returned the Tories for c2/3 of the past 300 years and, while the likes of MacMillan were just about palatable, they've moved so far away from that One Nation position, and are currently (and will be for some time given their MPs, membership, etc) poised between the Thatcherite agenda and the nativist/Faragist one, and I can see BadEnoch being pretty effective at combining them (who has been written off by too many, and has the clearest vision amongst Tory leaders since Cameron)

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 4, 2024

Weststander said:
Hopefully FTPT saves us even if Badenoch and Farage do a deal. I know a load of folk with very varied views (a lot through my work), I can only think of two who'd vote for anything remotely Farage.

The main downside of PR .. the inexorable rise of the far right in France, Hungry, Italy, Spain and now Germany. Huge footholds in parliament and decision making.

AfD have 10% of the Bundestag seats. They have a platform but little meaningful power especially as the mainstream parties don’t work with them.

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 4, 2024

Machiavelli said:
You and I will just have to differ on PR. I'd say the main downside of FPTP is its returned the Tories for c2/3 of the past 300 years and, while the likes of MacMillan were just about palatable, they've moved so far away from that One Nation position, and are currently (and will be for some time given their MPs, membership, etc) poised between the Thatcherite agenda and the nativist/Faragist one, and I can see BadEnoch being pretty effective at combining them (who has been written off by too many, and has the clearest vision amongst Tory leaders since Cameron)

PR could actually dilute current far-right concerns in the UK.

Weststander · Dec 4, 2024

Machiavelli said:
You and I will just have to differ on PR. I'd say the main downside of FPTP is its returned the Tories for c2/3 of the past 300 years and, while the likes of MacMillan were just about palatable, they've moved so far away from that One Nation position, and are currently (and will be for some time given their MPs, membership, etc) poised between the Thatcherite agenda and the nativist/Faragist one, and I can see BadEnoch being pretty effective at combining them (who has been written off by too many, and has the clearest vision amongst Tory leaders since Cameron)

I'm not a zealot either way, I can see the pluses and minuses from PR and FPTP. I would hate party lists nationally or regionally, MP's/candidates should individually and directly face the music at the ballot box.

A PR wholly elected second chamber is my idea.

Weststander · Dec 4, 2024

Herr Tubthumper said:
AfD have 10% of the Bundestag seats. They have a platform but little meaningful power especially as the mainstream parties don’t work with them.

Are they politicans who think Hitler had some positives and they despise Muslims? Genuine question.

Not so long ago they had no voice, now they have representation as support grows.

Machiavelli · Dec 4, 2024

Weststander said:
Are they politicans who think Hitler had some positives and they despise Muslims? Genuine question.

Not so long ago they had no voice, now they have representation as support grows.

I'm also not a zealot either way and can see some scepticism. Note that there's a difference with eg AfD when speaking to different audiences. There have been several attributions of Hitler-accommodation/celebration amongst the revived nativist right in many countries.
But back to FPTP/PR, do note that (the equivalent of) FPTP has just elected Trump. For the second time.
I lean towards PR in the UK for the reason that that's the way the electorate are heading. In 1951, 96% voted for the big two (on a massive turnout too); in 2024, it was 58%.

Weststander · Dec 4, 2024

Machiavelli said:
I'm also not a zealot either way and can see some scepticism. Note that there's a difference with eg AfD when speaking to different audiences. There have been several attributions of Hitler-accommodation/celebration amongst the revived nativist right in many countries.
But back to FPTP/PR, do note that (the equivalent of) FPTP has just elected Trump. For the second time.
I lean towards PR in the UK for the reason that that's the way the electorate are heading. In 1951, 96% voted for the big two (on a massive turnout too); in 2024, it was 58%.

Yep, all scum.

The US is an anachronist Electoral College system to appease 50 'commonwealths', often disenfranchising the poor hordes.

Thunder Bolt · Dec 4, 2024

Weststander said:
Wealth tax - a nightmare to ascertain the wealth for the truly rich, I think the affected would end up being the low hanging fruit eg older folk in a £1m house with a load of investments. Rather than people with clever arrangements. Council tax at the top end could be an easier solution.

The EU - we’re now guaranteed that nothing truly meaningful will even enter discussions until 2029. Gutting, the years pass by. Not just for our gen, but for people starting off in their careers. I really think Labour should use this opportunity to openly explore Norway or Swiss type deals with the EU. I do recognise the politics …. freedom of movement etc. But it would go down well with an overwhelming majority of the electorate including the marginal seats in Scotland …. for those people who are bothered.

Iceland are in the Single Market and starting to make moves to join the EU.

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[Politics] The Labour Government

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