[News] Farmers

PILTDOWN MAN · Tuesday at 12:01 PM

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Not a business model I'd embrace.

I wonder how it works for a fisherman who own a boat and wants to pass it on to his son?

Would he be exempt if his boat was worth less than a million quid?

The quotas are often worth more than the boat.

jcdenton08 · Tuesday at 12:02 PM

Call Cliff Thorburn now, please. @ManOfSussex

Herr Tubthumper · Tuesday at 12:02 PM

Mellor 3 Ward 4 said:
I'm with the farmers on this.

Team Harry :lolol:

Bold Seagull · Tuesday at 12:02 PM

dazzer6666 said:
What about somewhere to live ? Equipment ? Livestock ? Vehicles ?

…..and then when you’ve got all that, 60-80 hours a week, on call 24/7 to make - in most cases - very little money.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but I also don't think a strategic farming future for the country should rely on farming being mainly an inheritance based succession. If we want young and aspiring farmers, then owning your own farm and business that isn't inherited has to be an aspiration.

fly high · Tuesday at 12:03 PM

Bold Seagull said:
Precisely the reason so many estates have been bought by your Clarkson's with a view of avoiding IHT. I don't remember anyone posting that the IHT exception has created the exact same concern you have for food security. Farmer sells to investor for IHT saving purposes vs farmer sells because of IHT liability. Same difference if you're concerned about retention of farms from investors and big business.

OK so people want to target rich bastards like Clarkson, fine but why set such a low mark of £1m, why not just target the very rich?

Guinness Boy · Tuesday at 12:08 PM

Am I sympathetic to your typical family farmer? Yes, but the chances are they won't have to pay.

Am I sympathetic to tax dodgers James Dyson and Jeremy Clarkson and the landed gentry? Not at all. Pay your fair share*.

*although if you follow the advice I posted on one of the Labour thread post budget you won't even have to do that.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Tuesday at 12:08 PM

CheeseRolls said:
Pilling more on income tax is a terrible idea. There is a complete inbalance between earned income and unearned income and this for me is a step in the right direction. I hope there are more measures to follow and that unltimately tax paid on income will begin to fall.

You are a bit too left wing for me :wink:

(In an ideal world of course you are right in general terms*. My point for starting the thread has more to do with discussing the general perception, and the inevitable clamour from the right, of support for the 'poor' farmers. This support exists - as we have seen on this thread - so in that respect I was indeed 'fishing', with tiddlers swifty caught.

*And yet....take note those who accuse me of being 'clueless' - I have sympathy with anyone who finds they have to react to a change in circumstances, including farmers. It is just that the catastrophizing that some of them have decided to embrace is a tad pathetic.)

nicko31 · Tuesday at 12:09 PM

So they get a generous 3m quid allowance, half the rate of IHT and 10 years interest free credit to pay the bill.

Still not happy, then gift it.

FFS - You guys voted Brexit on mass, share the pain with the rest of us will you?

nicko31 · Tuesday at 12:11 PM

RandyWanger said:
A lot of people woke up and took the blue pill again I see.

Deference is still at our heart....

A1X · Tuesday at 12:12 PM

Has anyone checked the tractors in Westminster at the moment to make sure they're not using red diesel, given that wouldn't be allowed and they'd be avoiding yet more tax

jcdenton08 · Tuesday at 12:15 PM

The Antikythera Mechanism said:
Using a trust for succession planning in a farming family can be a practical and effective way to ensure the farm’s continued success and the fair distribution of assets among heirs.

Isn’t the problem here that these are rural farmers, not accountants and businesspeople? They know crops, and soil, and tractors and cows and work extremely long hours for very low pay, when taken as an hourly rate.

Most farms have been in families for generations, which started as a simple plot of land but have been cultivated and developed over a long period of time by families.

nicko31 · Tuesday at 12:16 PM

A1X said:
Has anyone checked the tractors in Westminster at the moment to make sure they're not using red diesel, given that wouldn't be allowed and they'd be avoiding yet more tax

They better not delay anyone's hospital appointment or that will be 3 years...

dazzer6666 · Tuesday at 12:18 PM

Bold Seagull said:
I'm not saying it would be easy, but I also don't think a strategic farming future for the country should rely on farming being mainly an inheritance based succession. If we want young and aspiring farmers, then owning your own farm and business that isn't inherited has to be an aspiration.

Nice theory but really not sure how we get say a 17 year old off to agricultural college to learn how to run a farm, then work on one earning enough - on what are crap wages - to save up a £50k (absolute minimum) deposit to buy his own farm (if there’s any lender that would even consider giving him a mortgage anyway). If it’s not in your family you aren’t going to own one.

I need to read more around this but it feels a bit like a sledgehammer to crack a nut - trying to capture the rich/VC lot who have been buying farms as a tax avoidance strategy but hitting simple farmers at the same time.

nicko31 · Tuesday at 12:25 PM

jcdenton08 said:
Isn’t the problem here that these are rural farmers, not accountants and businesspeople? They know crops, and soil, and tractors and cows and work extremely long hours for very low pay, when taken as an hourly rate.

Most farms have been in families for generations, which started as a simple plot of land but have been cultivated and developed over a long period of time by families.

How did all these farmers survive up until 1992 when the millionaires loophole was introduced?

Bold Seagull · Tuesday at 12:26 PM

dazzer6666 said:
Nice theory but really not sure how we get say a 17 year old off to agricultural college to learn how to run a farm, then work on one earning enough - on what are crap wages - to save up a £50k (absolute minimum) deposit to buy his own farm (if there’s any lender that would even consider giving him a mortgage anyway). If it’s not in your family you aren’t going to own one.

I need to read more around this but it feels a bit like a sledgehammer to crack a nut - trying to capture the rich/VC lot who have been buying farms as a tax avoidance strategy but hitting simple farmers at the same time.

I think in farming anyone under the age of 45 can be considered a 'young farmer'. Some will potentially run successful farming consultancy or management businesses and perhaps finally own a farm.

But you're highlighting an issue if no one can see a pathway to being a successful farmer without inheriting.

Green Cross Code Man · Tuesday at 12:27 PM

This.

beorhthelm said:
on the one hand the farmers may be over playing it.
on the other hand it's a crass policy to deal with one problem, that has consequences for thousands of farmers, and the original issue should have been dealt with better directly.

and it is thousands, government casually dismissing 500 farms a year affected are overlooking the long term and the families involved. also it's £1m value, there is no spouse transfer of this allowance. a relativly modest farm ~100 acres would be included.

what will happen is farms get trimmed smaller to avoid the IHT, making some less viable. a lot of small holding perhaps for weekend farmers, or rewilding while we import more food?

This. Or farms are bought up increasingly by large corporations which will decrease variety and increase the public being fleeced by those said corporations.

amexer · Tuesday at 12:28 PM

Still dont understand that some think it would be right for Clarkson to buy a farm for £5m and then qualify to pay no inheritance tax. If government have evidence loads of wealthy people are doing this surely its about time this loop hole was closed.

clapham_gull · Tuesday at 12:28 PM

nicko31 said:
FFS - You guys voted Brexit on mass,

I think that might be a bit of a myth.

abc · Tuesday at 12:29 PM

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Nicky Campbell's phone-in this morning is on farming.

There is a bus load of farmers on their way to London to protest against the introduction of some inheritance tax for farmers.

Crikey, what an entitled bunch.

They seem to have lived a simple life, with 'very little income' (some saying a few tens of thousands of pounds profit a year), but if their farm is worth more than three million pounds then, as a married couple, they will be liable to 20% inheritance tax (half what you and I pay), with this change coming in a couple of years, if they 'do nothing' to mitigate against the change.

Apparently farming is 'not a commercial business'. This means it is some sort of vocation, with little reward, that is offset by not having to think about anything, such as investment, saving, pensions and money in general.

And it's not fair.

Well, diddums.

A caller has pointed out that all that is needed is planning, but the farmers seem to think they shouldn't have to plan or think. OK, mates.

Final bleat: 'the government are taking away our way of life'. What did I do with that small onion I had in my pocket?

What a load of uninformed twaddle!

The value of a farm has nothing to do with the earning capacity and if it is passed down through generations its value is essentially meaningless. The average return on capital in farming is less than 1%. There is no other industry that could survive on that but family farms do because they work crazy hours and are prepared to earn very little. We take advantage of that by demanding cheap food, often at a level below the cost of production. Farming has the highest fatality rate of any industry partly due to excessive tiredness from working hours that would be illegal elsewhere in the economy. Also the highest suicide rate - but DIDDUMS to that!

No one will be able to inherit the family farm and afford to pay the IHT. The income is just not there. So the land will be sold but will not be purchased by another farmer as it is impossible to buy land and farm it profitably. eg An acre of arable land is worth c.£12000. That acre will deliver c.£600 of total wheat output (ie before all growing and business costs are deducted). Do the maths. So the land is lost to food production - where is your onion going to come from?!

But the demos are not just about IHT but this has been the final straw for an industry that has been hammered by successive governments, is seriously struggling to survive (unless you are the likes of dyson or Goodwood estates) and yet we all need to eat!

There are perhaps many people or even professions that you could accuse of being entitled - farmers are certainly not one of them

WestYorkshireSeagull · Tuesday at 12:30 PM

If only we had some kind of (EU)Union that gave subsidies, protections and export/import agreements to make life easier.

Thankfully they'll be alright, being professionals at reaping what they sow

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