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[Help] Redundancy / Redeployment advice required



Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
52,617
Goldstone
Mrs T's job no longer exists, along with a bunch of other jobs at her place of work.

Employees have been assessed at a talent development centre, there has been a chance to apply for jobs in the new structure, and some employees have been redeployed.

Mrs T did not get one of the new jobs she applied for, so she has been offered a trial in an alternative role. Whether or not the new role is suitable is up for debate:

www.gov.uk

Redundancy: your rights

Being made redundant - rights, statutory payments you're entitled to, notice periods and consultation, finding a job.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

Suitable alternative employment - Your rights during redundancy - Acas

If your employer offers you another job during redundancy it needs to be suitable and you should get to try it out. This is called suitable alternative employment.
www.acas.org.uk www.acas.org.uk

The new role is a lower grade and would involve a 16.3% pay cut (although pay is protected for 2 years). According to the advice from the links above, and the Employment Rights Act 1996, valid reasons for refusing the alternative offer of work would include both being a lower grade/status, and lower pay.

Questions:
If the role offered is a lower grade and lower pay, does the employee have to accept a trial in the new job (without unfairly accepting it, and therefore foregoing the right to redundancy pay)?
If the employee accepts the trial, can they turn down the new job at the end of the trial on the basis of grade/pay, and still be entitled to a redundancy payment?

Thanks :kiss:

​

 




Paulie Gualtieri

Paulie Gualtieri

Bada Bing
NSC Patron
May 8, 2018
10,422
From Gov website, the relevant bits in bold

Trial periods​

You have the right to a 4-week trial period for any alternative employment you’re offered.

The 4-week period could be extended if you need training. Any extension must be agreed in writing before the trial period starts.

Tell your employer during the trial period if you decide the new job is not suitable. This will not affect your employment rights, including your right to statutory redundancy pay.

You’ll lose your right to claim statutory redundancy pay if you do not give notice within the 4-week trial period.

www.gov.uk

Redundancy: your rights

Being made redundant - rights, statutory payments you're entitled to, notice periods and consultation, finding a job.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 


Eric the meek

Eric the meek

Fiveways Wilf
NSC Patron
Aug 24, 2020
6,802
Triggaaar said:
Mrs T's job no longer exists, along with a bunch of other jobs at her place of work.

Employees have been assessed at a talent development centre, there has been a chance to apply for jobs in the new structure, and some employees have been redeployed.

Mrs T did not get one of the new jobs she applied for, so she has been offered a trial in an alternative role. Whether or not the new role is suitable is up for debate:

www.gov.uk

Redundancy: your rights

Being made redundant - rights, statutory payments you're entitled to, notice periods and consultation, finding a job.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

Suitable alternative employment - Your rights during redundancy - Acas

If your employer offers you another job during redundancy it needs to be suitable and you should get to try it out. This is called suitable alternative employment.
www.acas.org.uk www.acas.org.uk

The new role is a lower grade and would involve a 16.3% pay cut (although pay is protected for 2 years). According to the advice from the links above, and the Employment Rights Act 1996, valid reasons for refusing the alternative offer of work would include both being a lower grade/status, and lower pay.

Questions:
If the role offered is a lower grade and lower pay, does the employee have to accept a trial in the new job (without unfairly accepting it, and therefore foregoing the right to redundancy pay)?
If the employee accepts the trial, can they turn down the new job at the end of the trial on the basis of grade/pay, and still be entitled to a redundancy payment?

Thanks :kiss:

​

Click to expand...
Sorry to hear that.

I have no idea of the correct answers to your questions.
But I would suggest it is worth paying for legal advice from a qualified employment law expert.
 


Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
52,617
Goldstone
Paulie Gualtieri said:
Tell your employer during the trial period if you decide the new job is not suitable. This will not affect your employment rights, including your right to statutory redundancy pay.
Click to expand...

That seems pretty relevant, thanks. I wonder if you have the right to decide it's not suitable before the trial starts?


Paulie Gualtieri said:
You’ll lose your right to claim statutory redundancy pay if you do not give notice within the 4-week trial period.
Click to expand...

Important point, thanks.
 






WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
27,516
Sorry to hear that Trig.

I'm guessing from the fact you haven't mentioned it, that she's not in a Union (for legal advice) ?

I'm sure you will get more good advice on here and I hope it goes as well as it can.
 


DJ NOBO

DJ NOBO

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2004
6,777
Wiltshire
Triggaaar said:
Mrs T's job no longer exists, along with a bunch of other jobs at her place of work.

Employees have been assessed at a talent development centre, there has been a chance to apply for jobs in the new structure, and some employees have been redeployed.

Mrs T did not get one of the new jobs she applied for, so she has been offered a trial in an alternative role. Whether or not the new role is suitable is up for debate:

www.gov.uk

Redundancy: your rights

Being made redundant - rights, statutory payments you're entitled to, notice periods and consultation, finding a job.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

Suitable alternative employment - Your rights during redundancy - Acas

If your employer offers you another job during redundancy it needs to be suitable and you should get to try it out. This is called suitable alternative employment.
www.acas.org.uk www.acas.org.uk

The new role is a lower grade and would involve a 16.3% pay cut (although pay is protected for 2 years). According to the advice from the links above, and the Employment Rights Act 1996, valid reasons for refusing the alternative offer of work would include both being a lower grade/status, and lower pay.

Questions:
If the role offered is a lower grade and lower pay, does the employee have to accept a trial in the new job (without unfairly accepting it, and therefore foregoing the right to redundancy pay)?
If the employee accepts the trial, can they turn down the new job at the end of the trial on the basis of grade/pay, and still be entitled to a redundancy payment?

Thanks :kiss:

​

Click to expand...
I’ve recently been through a redundancy process. The questions you ask should be put in writing to her HR who should not have difficulty answering as they are non-contentious process questions.
The answers are most likely to be no and yes.
 


Happy Exile

Happy Exile

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Apr 19, 2018
2,100
Definitely talk to ACAS. Do you know how many people were put at risk and if there was a collective consultation process? If that’s ongoing then things like extended trial periods can be negotiated as part of that too. If she does take the payment then look at what else she can get - no harm in asking. I know people who have managed to get retraining funded on top of payment for example.
 






Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
52,617
Goldstone
WATFORD zero said:
Sorry to hear that Trig.

I'm guessing from the fact you haven't mentioned it, that she's not in a Union (for legal advice) ?
Click to expand...

She is in a union, but I get the impression that the union rep knows less than those of us with access to google.


WATFORD zero said:
I'm sure you will get more good advice on here and I hope it goes as well as it can.
Click to expand...

Thanks
 


Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
52,617
Goldstone
DJ NOBO said:
I’ve recently been through a redundancy process. The questions you ask should be put in writing to her HR who should not have difficulty answering as they are non-contentious process questions.
The answers are most likely to be no and yes.
Click to expand...

Thanks. If a new job is offered which a very small amount lower salary per year, then I'd guess it's unreasonable to reject it on that point, and equally if the salary was half of the existing, then obviously that's not fair, and it's very reasonable to turn it down. Somewhere in between it's closer as to what is and isn't acceptable. I get the impression that HR will do what they can to protect the employer, and not suddenly guarantee the employee redundancy (which is out of their power).
 








Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
52,617
Goldstone
Happy Exile said:
Definitely talk to ACAS. Do you know how many people were put at risk and if there was a collective consultation process?
Click to expand...

A fair number (not sure exact number). Yes, there was a process, but some aspects do seem to have been messed up (one of the jobs Mrs T applied for wasn't offered to anyone, and when someone else saw that it was available they asked to switch to it, and they were given the job - Mrs T has a grievance meeting about this next week).

Happy Exile said:
If that’s ongoing then things like extended trial periods can be negotiated as part of that too.
Click to expand...

Extended trials may be an option, but that seems irrelevant if they're for jobs she doesn't want.


Happy Exile said:
If she does take the payment then look at what else she can get - no harm in asking. I know people who have managed to get retraining funded on top of payment for example.
Click to expand...

The company is the NHS. She wouldn't need any retraining. But there's no payment to take, the NHS will do what the can to prevent redundancy payments. Understandably so, we don't want public money being wasted, but if her job has gone and they can't offer a suitable alternative then I personally don't feel it's fair to insist she takes a lower grade role on lower pay (which is the crux of my questions).
 




DJ NOBO

DJ NOBO

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2004
6,777
Wiltshire
Triggaaar said:
Thanks. If a new job is offered which a very small amount lower salary per year, then I'd guess it's unreasonable to reject it on that point, and equally if the salary was half of the existing, then obviously that's not fair, and it's very reasonable to turn it down. Somewhere in between it's closer as to what is and isn't acceptable. I get the impression that HR will do what they can to protect the employer, and not suddenly guarantee the employee redundancy (which is out of their power).
Click to expand...
Couple of points.
I don’t see why you need to pay for professional support to get those questions answered . Just ask HR.
In my horrible, drawn out redundancy process, there were all kinds of rumours and gossip about HR and their agenda, Among colleagues. These chats amounted to nothing and created more stress. In the end, HR were all about following process and not much else.
If it came down to it they sided with employer, but 99% of the time conflicts were defused with their processes.
 


Happy Exile

Happy Exile

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Apr 19, 2018
2,100
Triggaaar said:
I get the impression that HR will do what they can to protect the employer, and not suddenly guarantee the employee redundancy (which is out of their power).
Click to expand...
HR should be able to demonstrate every step has been taken to avoid redundancy which helps prevent disputes and should protect both parties. The trouble is that those steps may not always be what we want or give us outcomes we’d choose (having been through this myself). ACAS will be able to advise whether everything has been followed correctly though.

Edit having read your other reply: if a job she could have reasonably been considered for or successfully applied for wasn’t offered then that’s a major balls-up. I saw the lack of trust in the union person, if she can find someone who knows that they are doing to accompany her into the grievance that’d be worth it
 


R

raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,020
Wiltshire
Happy Exile said:
Definitely talk to ACAS. Do you know how many people were put at risk and if there was a collective consultation process? If that’s ongoing then things like extended trial periods can be negotiated as part of that too. If she does take the payment then look at what else she can get - no harm in asking. I know people who have managed to get retraining funded on top of payment for example.
Click to expand...
...yes, and possibly even placement support advice (for a new job elsewhere)
 


Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
68,534
Withdean area
DJ NOBO said:
Couple of points.
I don’t see why you need to pay for professional support to get those questions answered . Just ask HR.
In my horrible, drawn out redundancy process, there were all kinds of rumours and gossip about HR and their agenda, Among colleagues. These chats amounted to nothing and created more stress. In the end, HR were all about following process and not much else.
If it came down to it they sided with employer, but 99% of the time conflicts were defused with their processes.
Click to expand...

That was fortuitous, an objective, professional HR department.

I’ve been firsthand party on the employers side to the exact opposite. The bosses decide subjective outcomes eg they dislike some members of staff so target them for easing out of the business. Then ask HR internally or consultants, to come up with a process and matrix that gives the conclusion subjectively decided at the beginning.

So experience, I have professional scepticism.

(I wasn't the victim, so this isn’t bitterness).
 




A

amexer

Well-known member
Aug 8, 2011
6,721
Every sympathy for anybody laid off but how times have changed. If business found they couldnt justify the number of staff they just released the relavent people not needed. Now they have to think of possible tribunals and legal
 


Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
68,534
Withdean area
amexer said:
Every sympathy for anybody laid off but how times have changed. If business found they couldnt justify the number of staff they just released the relavent people not needed. Now they have to think of possible tribunals and legal
Click to expand...

Thankfully.

60 years of ever improved employment laws have meant unscrupulous owners/senior managers can’t just follow their biases, prejudices, ruses to get round rights. When they do, wrongful dismissal or unfair dismissal give remedies to the invariably poorer/weaker party.
 


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