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Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
67,873
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
Zeberdi said:
Yep, agree with the point you are making though - it seems grossly unfair that older pensioners are on a lower pension rate than younger pensioners however, they are entitled to pension credits so will at least qualify for the winter fuel allowance - and other means-tested benefits so it’s not all black and white

This is a good article

www.theguardian.com

UK state pensions: are older retirees getting a bad deal?

People who receive the new state pension can get thousands a year more than those on the old basic scheme
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
Not all older pensioners. I’m ok but have friends the same age as me, who miss out on Pension credit by £1.50 a week, so therefore miss out on the WFA.
 




Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,283
Back in Sussex
BN41Albion said:
I find it sickening the way the right wing press have covered it - its absolutely a policy that if it were the Tories they would be fully behind as a rational and sensible cut to make - it's more of a Torie policy anyway on the face of it.

Such is the gutter press in this country, though 🙄
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you classify as the right-wing press, but I'm pretty sure I don't consume any of it at all.

Maybe I'm doing you a disservice. Perhaps you are just completely ignorant about what this means.

Let's recap for your benefit...

1. No one is arguing that wealthy pensioners should continue receiving this universal benefit. It needs to be better targeted towards those who do genuinely need it to stay warm through the winter months.

2. Targeting needs to be better than a blunt "If you get pension credits you can continue to receive it, otherwise you can't" That is crass, cruel and creates a cliff-edge. It's akin to saying when you move up from one income tax bracket to another, ALL of your income is taxed at the higher rate, making you poorer.

Read this poor lady's story - https://news.stv.tv/east-central/ed...after-missing-out-on-winter-fuel-payment-by-3 If she'd been £3 worse off, she'd be £300 better off and able to afford more heating. That is fundamentally wrong on any way of reasoning.

She's not alone - there are many tens of thousands of people who sit just above the pensions credit threshold who are losing what, for them, is a signidicant sum of money.

3. Labour didn't conduct an impact analysis of this policy which is, let's be frank, bizarre. Oh, hang on, you mentioned this sounds more like a Tory policy, didn't you. Hold the line caller...

Oh yes, when it was rumoured that the Tories may do this exact thing a few years back, Labour were in absolute uproar about it. And rightly so. It's a pensioner-killer.

And Labour backed up that claim with research that indicated that nearly 4,000 pensioners could lose their lives over winter if they lost the Winter Fuel Allowance. Details here, from the LEFT WING PRESS: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ce-cuts-puts-4000-lives-at-risk-claims-labour

4. Who knows a lot about the travails of the older population in the UK? Age UK you say? I wonder what they had to say about this. Let's check...

"Cutting the Winter Fuel Payment, with very little notice and no compensatory measures to protect poor and vulnerable pensioners, is the wrong policy choice, and one that will potentially jeopardise the health, as well as the finances, of millions of older people this winter. This is the last thing both they and the NHS need. "

Source: https://www.ageuk.org.uk/our-impact/campaigning/save-the-winter-fuel-payment/#:~:text=Winter Fuel Payment is an,Allowance, or an award of

This isn't some right wing press inspired witch hunt, a fuss over nothing. This is a vicious attack on some of the poorest and some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Proud older people who don't want to ask for handouts, don't want to seek charity and just want to be able to stay warm until spring.

Shame on all those who are allowing this to happen, support it or excuse it.
 




Bry Nylon

Bry Nylon

Test your smoke alarm
Helpful Moderator
Jul 21, 2003
20,572
Playing snooker
Weststander said:
Labour obsessives here would love to pigeon hole this as purely wealthy Daily Mail reading old people. Nothing to see here.
Click to expand...
I think most of them seem to be experiencing internet connection issues. Which must be deeply frustrating because for the last few years they’ve been on the political threads non-stop. Odd.

> insert shrug emoji, laugh emoji, wink emoji
 


peterward

peterward

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Nov 11, 2009
12,269
Bozza said:
I'm not sure what you classify as the right-wing press, but I'm pretty sure I don't consume any of it at all.

Maybe I'm doing you a disservice. Perhaps you are just completely ignorant about what this means.

Let's recap for your benefit...

1. No one is arguing that wealthy pensioners should continue receiving this universal benefit. It needs to be better targeted towards those who do genuinely need it to stay warm through the winter months.

2. Targeting needs to be better than a blunt "If you get pension credits you can continue to receive it, otherwise you can't" That is crass, cruel and creates a cliff-edge. It's akin to saying when you move up from one income tax bracket to another, ALL of your income is taxed at the higher rate, making you poorer.

Read this poor lady's story - https://news.stv.tv/east-central/ed...after-missing-out-on-winter-fuel-payment-by-3 If she'd been £3 worse off, she'd be £300 better off and able to afford more heating. That is fundamentally wrong on any way of reasoning.

She's not alone - there are many tens of thousands of people who sit just above the pensions credit threshold who are losing what, for them, is a signidicant sum of money.

3. Labour didn't conduct an impact analysis of this policy which is, let's be frank, bizarre. Oh, hang on, you mentioned this sounds more like a Tory policy, didn't you. Hold the line caller...

Oh yes, when it was rumoured that the Tories may do this exact thing a few years back, Labour were in absolute uproar about it. And rightly so. It's a pensioner-killer.

And Labour backed up that claim with research that indicated that nearly 4,000 pensioners could lose their lives over winter if they lost the Winter Fuel Allowance. Details here, from the LEFT WING PRESS: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ce-cuts-puts-4000-lives-at-risk-claims-labour

4. Who knows a lot about the travails of the older population in the UK? Age UK you say? I wonder what they had to say about this. Let's check...

"Cutting the Winter Fuel Payment, with very little notice and no compensatory measures to protect poor and vulnerable pensioners, is the wrong policy choice, and one that will potentially jeopardise the health, as well as the finances, of millions of older people this winter. This is the last thing both they and the NHS need. "

Source: https://www.ageuk.org.uk/our-impact/campaigning/save-the-winter-fuel-payment/#:~:text=Winter Fuel Payment is an,Allowance, or an award of

This isn't some right wing press inspired witch hunt, a fuss over nothing. This is a vicious attack on some of the poorest and some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Proud older people who don't want to ask for handouts, don't want to seek charity and just want to be able to stay warm until spring.

Shame on all those who are allowing this to happen, support it or excuse it.
Click to expand...
Excellent post, and as the token Tory on QT said last night, normally in all such proposed events, an impact assessment would first be required...... but there has been none at all. Why?

This seems as crazy as it is dangerous to many poorer pensioners who will at best be forced to choose between heating or eating and at worst may even die.

No such issues or impact assesments required for Two Tier Free Gear Kier this winter.
 






Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
69,243
Withdean area
Bry Nylon said:
I think most of them seem to be experiencing internet connection issues. Which must be deeply frustrating because for the last few years they’ve been on the political threads non-stop. Odd.

> insert shrug emoji, laugh emoji, wink emoji
Click to expand...

I didn’t have to be Nostradamus when for a couple of years I predicted this. It’s one thing revelling on nsc about the cost of furlough, also Partygate and the boats. Another watching your beloved party having a crack at it, especially in an social media age where every faux pas is amplified.

There’s only so many times one can blame the Daily Mail.
 


B

BN41Albion

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2017
6,826
Bozza said:
I'm not sure what you classify as the right-wing press, but I'm pretty sure I don't consume any of it at all.

Maybe I'm doing you a disservice. Perhaps you are just completely ignorant about what this means.

Let's recap for your benefit...

1. No one is arguing that wealthy pensioners should continue receiving this universal benefit. It needs to be better targeted towards those who do genuinely need it to stay warm through the winter months.

2. Targeting needs to be better than a blunt "If you get pension credits you can continue to receive it, otherwise you can't" That is crass, cruel and creates a cliff-edge. It's akin to saying when you move up from one income tax bracket to another, ALL of your income is taxed at the higher rate, making you poorer.

Read this poor lady's story - https://news.stv.tv/east-central/ed...after-missing-out-on-winter-fuel-payment-by-3 If she'd been £3 worse off, she'd be £300 better off and able to afford more heating. That is fundamentally wrong on any way of reasoning.

She's not alone - there are many tens of thousands of people who sit just above the pensions credit threshold who are losing what, for them, is a signidicant sum of money.

3. Labour didn't conduct an impact analysis of this policy which is, let's be frank, bizarre. Oh, hang on, you mentioned this sounds more like a Tory policy, didn't you. Hold the line caller...

Oh yes, when it was rumoured that the Tories may do this exact thing a few years back, Labour were in absolute uproar about it. And rightly so. It's a pensioner-killer.

And Labour backed up that claim with research that indicated that nearly 4,000 pensioners could lose their lives over winter if they lost the Winter Fuel Allowance. Details here, from the LEFT WING PRESS: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ce-cuts-puts-4000-lives-at-risk-claims-labour

4. Who knows a lot about the travails of the older population in the UK? Age UK you say? I wonder what they had to say about this. Let's check...

"Cutting the Winter Fuel Payment, with very little notice and no compensatory measures to protect poor and vulnerable pensioners, is the wrong policy choice, and one that will potentially jeopardise the health, as well as the finances, of millions of older people this winter. This is the last thing both they and the NHS need. "

Source: https://www.ageuk.org.uk/our-impact/campaigning/save-the-winter-fuel-payment/#:~:text=Winter Fuel Payment is an,Allowance, or an award of

This isn't some right wing press inspired witch hunt, a fuss over nothing. This is a vicious attack on some of the poorest and some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Proud older people who don't want to ask for handouts, don't want to seek charity and just want to be able to stay warm until spring.

Shame on all those who are allowing this to happen, support it or excuse it.
Click to expand...

Well... I can't really argue with any of that. I'll get back in my box; perhaps just basing my opinion on the older folk I know who have absolutely never needed the WFA has made me a bit too closed minded on it all
 




Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,283
Back in Sussex
BN41Albion said:
Well... I can't really argue with any of that. I'll get back in my box; perhaps just basing my opinion on the older folk I know who have absolutely never needed the WFA has made me a bit too closed minded on it all
Click to expand...

There's a lot of such folk, and you're quite right - they don't need it, and shouldn't get it. As a country we can spend that money on much better things.

But those who do need it still number in the hundreds of thousands, and some are going to be in a desperate state this winter, unless some sort of help can be found for them. Thus far sadly, the government are sticking to their guns, and offering nothing to help these poor souls.
 


B

BN41Albion

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2017
6,826
Bozza said:
There's a lot of such folk, and you're quite right - they don't need it, and shouldn't get it. As a country we can spend that money on much better things.

But those who do need it still number in the hundreds of thousands, and some are going to be in a desperate state this winter, unless some sort of help can be found for them. Thus far sadly, the government are sticking to their guns, and offering nothing to help these poor souls.
Click to expand...

I'll admit I've been very caught up in work lately and much more focused on other areas of news (I guess especially as WFA doesn't affect me) that I haven't been as open minded on this as I should've, so shouldn't really have stuck my neck out earlier without thinking. Certainly agree with what you're saying - I didn't consider how severe the cut off is between receiving it and not.
 


Zeberdi

Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
6,931
Thunder Bolt said:
Not all older pensioners. I’m ok but have friends the same age as me, who miss out on Pension credit by £1.50 a week, so therefore miss out on the WFA.
Click to expand...
The original point of my post re. cf a minimum wage with the State Pension was to demonstrate the disparity. I linked to the new pension because that is what I am entitled to and something I knew about. Apologies if I overlooked the old basic rate that you/your friend are on - we all tend to be a little subjective in these debates - especially if we have stuff going on that makes us particularly sensitive to the needs of elderly people in our lives or we are pensioners ourselves.

My intention was simply to show this Country pays more to those on a minimum wage (set at a level deemed to be the minimum one can live on) than it does its pensioners. The Guardian article is worth a read - there are clearly winners and losers regardless of when someone was born which is why it’s not black and white.

The answer could be to introduce a non-means tested Universal Basic Income for everyone (waiting for 10 people to jump on that and shout it down) but how tf would we find the money for that? And who would decide what level it should be?

Bozza said:
unless some sort of help can be found for them
Click to expand...
Some Councils are looking at paying pensioners who lose out on the WFA a payment of £250 from the Household Support Fund (more than the under 80s would have got from the WFA).

www.birminghammail.co.uk

State pensioners to get £250 Cost of Living payment after Winter Fuel axe

North East Lincolnshire is bringing back its Household Support Fund.
www.birminghammail.co.uk www.birminghammail.co.uk
 




Pavilionaire

Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
31,262
LamieRobertson said:
Nice bit of Whatsboutery oh and it’s the media to blame 🤦‍♂️
Click to expand...
It's not whataboutery, it's perspective and realism.

If you are going to 'fire' any leader that accepts a few freebies at £20K a year then you will never get anybody you support to be PM -be they left right or centre.

Given the colossal kick back culture of the last Tory government (PPE contracts being one of many worth hundreds of millions) this is a drop ocean.

If the idea is to present Tory and Labour as being both as bad as each other it is like equating Hitler with Farage, i.e similar shit but on a completely different scale.
 


Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,283
Back in Sussex
Pavilionaire said:
It's not whataboutery, it's perspective and realism.

If you are going to 'fire' any leader that accepts a few freebies at £20K a year then you will never get anybody you support to be PM -be they left right or centre.

Given the colossal kick back culture of the last Tory government (PPE contracts being one of many worth hundreds of millions) this is a drop ocean.

If the idea is to present Tory and Labour as being both as bad as each other it is like equating Hitler with Farage, i.e similar shit but on a completely different scale.
Click to expand...
No one, bar a few disgruntled cabinet members anyway, wants to fire Keir Starmer.

He's the rightfully-elected Prime Minister who enjoys a stonking majority.

He knows the task at hand, and he's laser-focused on getting the country back on its feet. Not even killing off a few hundred/thousand oldies (source: Labour research) will distract him from his mission.
 


chip

chip

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
1,313
Glorious Goodwood
I hadn't heard of David Lammy before. Seems to be doing a good job at the foreign office according to the FT

David Lammy accused of diplomatic blunder in Substack blog post​

UK foreign secretary suggested Azerbaijan had ‘liberated’ the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh


Didn't Boris get off to a similar start?
 




Chicken Run

Chicken Run

Member Since Jul 2003
NSC Patron
Jul 17, 2003
19,804
Valley of Hangleton
chip said:
I hadn't heard of David Lammy before. Seems to be doing a good job at the foreign office according to the FT

David Lammy accused of diplomatic blunder in Substack blog post​

UK foreign secretary suggested Azerbaijan had ‘liberated’ the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh


Didn't Boris get off to a similar start?
Click to expand...
And probably Biden 😂
 










Guinness Boy

Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
37,339
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
Bozza said:
There's a lot of such folk, and you're quite right - they don't need it, and shouldn't get it. As a country we can spend that money on much better things.

But those who do need it still number in the hundreds of thousands, and some are going to be in a desperate state this winter, unless some sort of help can be found for them. Thus far sadly, the government are sticking to their guns, and offering nothing to help these poor souls.
Click to expand...
So you keep saying.

So where are you moving the goalposts to, how do you administrate it and what is the net new financial impact that you have to get from somewhere else?

Dead easy being in opposition, isn’t it?
 




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