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[News] Middle East conflict



aolstudios

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2011
5,147
brighton
while following some rules of war accepted at the time, we did a lot of things we dont find acceptable today. maybe at least try to address the question without resorting to whataboutery.
That's not whataboutery.
I'm highlighting that there doesn't seem to be any means that Jews are allowed to defend themselves against a foe whose stated aim is to kill them all.
This is defence against a war of annihilation. On several fronts. Maiming your enemy's combatants is kind of normal in war.
But unacceptable for Jews, evidently
 




Seagull58

In the Algarve
Jan 31, 2012
8,334
Vilamoura, Portugal
that is ok then, phew.....
At no point have I commented on whether it's ok or not. Are collateral civilian deaths ever OK in a military operation? I'm sure that can be debated for ever with many examples from history. The point I'm making is that Mossad did not target civilians and did not make an untargetted attack. They went after Hezbollah operational targets.
 




Seagull58

In the Algarve
Jan 31, 2012
8,334
Vilamoura, Portugal
Why do people these days feel the need to ‘defend’ sick acts? There should be no sides taken by anyone in the UK other than to feel sick at all the acts of murder happening from all sides in all wars. It should never be a place for point scoring over who did what when - everyone is wrong in my opinion. End of.
Without wishing to divert the thread but in direct response to your post, so what is your view of the Russia-Ukraine conflict?
 


aolstudios

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2011
5,147
brighton
My error, the amount of civilian injuries is unknown, although we do know for certain two children were killed.

Do you think it an acceptable tactic to be used against the IDF in Tel Aviv?
We don't 'know for certain'.
Only that Hezbollah have said so (as Hamas often 'say so' before it turns out to be made up).
Every news channel is saying "according to Hezbollah" or "according to Lebanon" (which is the same thing)
 








beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,909
That's not whataboutery.
I'm highlighting that there doesn't seem to be any means that Jews are allowed to defend themselves against a foe whose stated aim is to kill them all.
This is defence against a war of annihilation. On several fronts. Maiming your enemy's combatants is kind of normal in war.
But unacceptable for Jews, evidently
oh please. Hezbollah is in no position to conduct a war of annihilation. they are terrorists who greatly impact on the peaceful living of those in northen Israel. taking out their leaders in assassinations is fair game. shooting soliders on the battlefield, standard warfare. deliberatly injuring soliders, posing no immediate threat, in public spaces is just nasty.
 






Insel affe

HellBilly
Feb 23, 2009
24,207
Brighton factually.....
That's not whataboutery.
I'm highlighting that there doesn't seem to be any means that Jews are allowed to defend themselves against a foe whose stated aim is to kill them all.
This is defence against a war of annihilation. On several fronts. Maiming your enemy's combatants is kind of normal in war.
But unacceptable for Jews, evidently
But what is acceptable for jews evidently is indiscriminately bomb civilians, hospitals and schools killing 43000. 43000 let that sink in....

Is that an appropriate response ?
 


Seagull58

In the Algarve
Jan 31, 2012
8,334
Vilamoura, Portugal
you have not answered my previous question, do you think 430000 dead, thousands maimed and displaced is an acceptable response to the original atrocity by Hamas ?
It's a very complex, awful situation that has been going on for close to 80 years with 2 full-blown wars and continual border incidents. Impossible, imo, to say with any degree of conviction whether the Israeli response is acceptable or not without knowing how the conflict will evolve. If you think that's a cop out then so be it.
 




Why do people these days feel the need to ‘defend’ sick acts? There should be no sides taken by anyone in the UK other than to feel sick at all the acts of murder happening from all sides in all wars. It should never be a place for point scoring over who did what when - everyone is wrong in my opinion. End of.
Because we have too many sociopaths in our midsts. Pretty easy to spot who would have been the concentration camp guards if they were born in the time and place
 




PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 15, 2004
19,440
Hurst Green
No Jews, no news
Zelenskyy is the first Jewish president of Ukraine; with Volodymyr Groysman as prime minister, Ukraine became the first country other than Israel to simultaneously have a Jewish head of state and head of government.
 






Seagull58

In the Algarve
Jan 31, 2012
8,334
Vilamoura, Portugal
oh please. Hezbollah is in no position to conduct a war of annihilation. they are terrorists who greatly impact on the peaceful living of those in northen Israel. taking out their leaders in assassinations is fair game. shooting soliders on the battlefield, standard warfare. deliberatly injuring soliders, posing no immediate threat, in public spaces is just nasty.
The objective of Hezbollah and Hamas is to destroy the State of Isreal though, isn't it? They are supported by Iran and Syria who also have that stated objective. Iranian leaders have repeated it several times.
 




borat

Well-known member
Jul 16, 2003
637
My error, the amount of civilian injuries is unknown, although we do know for certain two children were killed.

Do you think it an acceptable tactic to be used against the IDF in Tel Aviv?
Side point but important. Under international law the occupied (Palestinians) have a right to resist their occupiers and that includes "armed struggle" (UN resolution 37/43)
 




rippleman

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2011
4,932
That's not whataboutery.
I'm highlighting that there doesn't seem to be any means that Jews are allowed to defend themselves against a foe whose stated aim is to kill them all.
This is defence against a war of annihilation. On several fronts. Maiming your enemy's combatants is kind of normal in war.
But unacceptable for Jews, evidently
My bolding.

Yes, it is. But maiming (or killing) tens of thousands of innocent non-combatants including children really isn't "normal". In another time, at another place, it would be called genocide.

And please don't make this a "Jewish" issue. It really isn't. I have marched with Jews on pro-Palestinian marches over the attrocities in Gaza. I have seen Jews protesting on the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The problem lies square at the door of the extreme rightwing government of the State of Israel. It is disingenuous in the extreme to try to make this into an anti-Jewish issue. It isn't.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,407
Faversham
You can't be sure that it will achieve nothing useful. There are examples in history of terrorist organisations renouncing violence and embracing peaceful, political means, and examples of terrorist organisations pretty much ceasing to exist. The IRA as the former and the Tamil Tigers as the latter. Also, Frelimo, Swapo, Sandanista etc. etc.
Sorry, not following your point. I was saying that it doesn't matter whether we think that the collateral deaths associated with the pager bombs means that this act is not as bad as 9/11 or is just as bad (in a game of terror top trumps). I think it means 'not as bad' but I don't think that what I think will affect anything going forward, for the reasons explained.

And related to that, I don't think that the pager bombs has made it any more or less likely that Hamas or Hezbollah will make peace with Israel (that was not my point by the way, my point was about whether what we think about it will have any influence on whether Hamas or Hezbollah will make peace with Israel (and indeed, vice versa)).
 


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