[Albion] You're the ref: Veltman v Rice

TugWilson said:

I`ve just looked again and it looks like Yankuba is about 10 yds up the line from Joel , so a possible break up the wing .

We all know how it went down , but no one made Rice toe the ball away , so he can only blame himself , and we all know how it would have gone down had it been the other way round

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Machiavelli said:

I'm being sensible. Veltman explicitly said in the post-match interview that he was trying to pass it to Welbeck -- who is free in that picture you've helpfully shared.
It's up to Rice not to impede the quick free kick.
It's up to Rice not to kick the ball away.
Whatever happens after that is immaterial, because those two things are what the ref has to judge the incident by.

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Stato said:

In an attempt to protect your sanity, I think that most of us are agreeing with you that both were acting a bit silly. Surely nobody who has witnessed much of Joel Veltman's career is really buying the 'innocent attempt to find Danny upfield' argument. We're just saying that he didn't actually commit an offence and has left himself enough plausible deniability to get away with his actions.

It happens all the time and there's only such a big fuss about it now because it seemingly cost one of the title favourites some ground. In the opening round of games, Ben Brereton Diaz was even closer to the mark in seemingly feigning injury from Schar's putting his head in his face. Schar sent off for violent conduct. BBD booked, but I think that was for the initial challenge. He could have easily got a second for feigning injury and couldn't have had too many complaints. Players are always trying to get a fractional advantage. I'd perhaps be more sympathetic* to Arsenal's complaints about Joel's housery if they hadn't themselves spent the whole first half diving, tactical fouling and being in the ref's face over every decision. You sleep with dogs and you get fleas. You try to cross a clever Dutchman and you end up in the canal.

*- Shh.. Of course I wouldn't - Just plausible deniability again.

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ChickenBaltiPie said:

Did Rice get a straight Red? - No

Did Rice commit a Red card offence? - Yes (Two YELLOWS)

Did Rice deserve the first Yellow? - Yes

Did the ref think it was more of an ‘Orange?’ - Yes

Was it? - Debatable/Irrelevant

Did Rice try to injure Veltman by deliberately going in hard? - Debatable(IMO He realised his mistake and attempted to pull out. Unlike Williams!!)/Irrelevant

Did the ref therefore think he’d already shown him some leniency? - Yes

Was he therefore on a ‘final warning’ from the ref/was he unlikely to get any further leniency? - Yes

Did Rice adjust his behaviour accordingly so to further avoid another yellow? - No

Do Arsenal fans appoint any blame to Rice for his actions? - No

Should they? - Yes

Was Dunks hand in an unnatural position resulting in a handball? - No

Was Pedro trying to keep the ball in play? - Debatable(Probably not IMO)/Irrelevant

Could Pedro have got a yellow? - Debatable/Irrelevant

Would it have been for delaying/interfering with a restart? - No

Was the ball out of play? - Yes

Could Arsenal have restarted the game at any time regardless of Pedro’s actions? - Yes

Are the two incidents the same/inconsistent? - No

Would this have changed the outcome of Rice’s Red? - No

Would it have made Rice’s second yellow more likely? - Yes

Could it therefore equally be argued that Arteta’s relentless touchline behaviour warranting greater reprimand be considered just as relevant? - Yes

Did Rice foul Veltman again? - Debatable/Irrelevant

Did the ref think it was a foul? - Yes

Did Rice interfere with the restart by not withdrawing? - YES (YELLOW by the letter of the law.)

Have the refs said they will enforce this law more consistently? - Yes

Is it consistently enforced? - No (IMO their only fair gripe…going forward)

If Arsenal fans complain about the inconsistency of this law being upheld, does that reinforce the fact the law was broken? - Yes

Was the ball still rolling? - Yes/Irrelevant

Was the ball still rolling because rice hadn’t withdrawn and the ball hit his heel? - Debatable/Irrelevant

Did Rice’s actions interfere with the restart of a legal retake or an illegal retake? - Debatable/Irrelevant

Do the laws state that a player must not interfere with a ‘legal’ restart? - No

Did Veltman attempt to kick the ball into Rice to emphasise Rice had not withdrawn? - Debatable(Almost certainly IMO)/Irrelevant

Was there an opportune pass upfield for Veltman to make - Debatable(We’ll never know what movement our other players could’ve or would’ve made in order to receive it)/Irrelevant

Did he miss the ball and kick Rice instead? - Yes

Was it Veltman’s intention to kick Rice? - No

Did Rice further interfere with the restart by kicking/flicking the ball out of play, causing Veltman to miss it and kick Rice instead? - YES (YELLOW by the letter of the law)

Would Veltman have kicked Rice otherwise? - No

Can a yellow be awarded to Veltman for actions out of his control taken by an opposition player resulting in a foul to the opposition player? - No

Did Rice fake a serious injury? - Yes (YELLOW by the letter of the law)

Could Rice have received three different yellows for three different actions in quick succession? - Yes

Did the ref show Arsenal/Rice any leniency/apply ‘common sense?’ - Yes(In the opinion of the ref…by not awarding a red for Rice’s first half tackle on Veltman)

Do Arsenal fans expect greater leniency/‘common sense?’ - Yes

Are Arsenal accustomed to greater leniency than ‘teams like Brighton?’ - Yes

Does applying ‘common sense’ mean a ref can choose to apply or not not apply the laws of the game at will? - Yes

Would that be illegal? - Yes

All things considered, did the ref make the correct/legal decision? - YES

Should/could VAR have intervened? - No

If VAR had intervened would it have changed the outcome? - No

Do I have too much time on my hands? - Yes

Should I find something better to do with my time? - YES

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RustyKent said:

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HeaviestTed said:

They are still moaning! Spoke to an arsenal fan earlier and he was still complaining saying the first tackle wasn’t even a yellow

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HeaviestTed said:

They are still moaning! Spoke to an arsenal fan earlier and he was still complaining saying the first tackle wasn’t even a yellow

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Withdean South Stand said:

TL; DR.

#retireDermot

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ChickenBaltiPie said:

Something tells me you’re a high achiever!

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Withdean South Stand said:

Something tells me you're a c..............................

See how quickly a point can be made.

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ChickenBaltiPie said:

That’s definitely a point of view made quickly. Effectively? - Debatable/Irrelevant

…and yet, no less valid! I can be a right (self confessed) C….. (When warranted)

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Withdean South Stand said:

Can't we all! In summary, do you think Rice should have gone? For me, it's yellow card for both players and we all move on. If Rice hadn't launched himself stupidly into Veltman earlier in the game he wouldn't have been sent off for the second yellow!

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Hiheidi said:

Not only moaning, but trolling poor Mrs Veltman on Instagram.
View attachment 188541View attachment 188542View attachment 188543

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LamieRobertson said:

I don’t understand the post “you won’t get to see the baby”

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Hiheidi said:

It sounds like a threat?

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Hiheidi said:

It sounds like a threat?

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