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[Politics] The Labour Government



Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
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Jul 11, 2003
62,643
The Fatherland
The Clamp said:
Especially when they cater to the most privileged sector of the population.

I imagine they use scholarships for leverage on charity status?
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Quite. I get the gist of charities i.e. they do not make profit and provide benefit BUT private schools only provide benefit to a very select bunch of people.

I see from a post above, that some unversities have similar status, but they provide benefit to a far wider and larger section of society. I also note that, by law, schools are not allowed to be profitable in the UK.
 




keaton

keaton

Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
Nov 18, 2004
9,971
abc said:
news.sky.com

Prison population hits record high - as Estonia offers to take convicts

The Ministry of Justice says it is "considering all viable options" to increase capacity on the prison estate, as the latest statistics show there are only about 1,000 places available.
news.sky.com news.sky.com

Are Labour trying to outdo the Tories by creating controversy after controversy? The Tories achieved this largely by incompetence but it’s starting to feel like a Labour policy all of its own
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What's the controversy /issue? They're refusing to rule out something the previous government came up with to resolve a crisis.
 


A

abc

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
1,380
keaton said:
What's the controversy /issue? They're refusing to rule out something the previous government came up with to resolve a crisis.
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So the government should refuse to rule out Rwanda because “the previous government came up with (it) to resolve a crisis”?

Both concepts are equally immoral in my eyes and I am shocked that Labour are not doing the easy but right thing by ruling both out from day one.
 


The Clamp

The Clamp

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Jan 11, 2016
26,144
West is BEST
keaton said:
What's the controversy /issue? They're refusing to rule out something the previous government came up with to resolve a crisis.
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They didn’t do it to resolve a crisis. They did it to appease people who thought we were being overrun by “illegal immigrants”.

If they wanted to resolve the issue, they could have started processing the thousands of outstanding applications.
 


keaton

keaton

Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
Nov 18, 2004
9,971
The Clamp said:
They didn’t do it to resolve a crisis. They did it to appease people who thought we were being overrun by “illegal immigrants”.

If they wanted to resolve the issue, they could have started processing the thousands of outstanding applications.
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I'm assuming you meant to quote someone else because I'm talking about prisons
 




A

abc

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
1,380
Herr Tubthumper said:
Quite. I get the gist of charities i.e. they do not make profit and provide benefit BUT private schools only provide benefit to a very select bunch of people.
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I think charitable status has been historically abused in this way for many years. It is why the likes of Eton and Chist Hospital are able to claim tax free charity status despite having huge assets and benefitting a very small section of society that don’t NEED what they offer but would LIKE it.
The C of E are another example. Assets of over £8 billion and selling vast areas of land for housing yet paying no tax.
Further examples of where the real power still sits in England.

A full review of charitable status would be welcome
 
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Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
62,643
The Fatherland
abc said:
I think charitable status has been historically abused in this way for many years. It is why the likes of Eton and Chist Hospital are able to claim tax free charity status despite having huge assets and benefitting a very small section of society that don’t NEED what they offer but would LIKE it.
The C of E are another example. Assets of over £8 billion and selling vast areas of land for housing yet paying no tax.
Further examples of where the real piers still sits in England.

A full review of charitable status would be welcome
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Thanks for this. I just looked and Eton has half a billion of reserves. What does reserves mean? Is it just cash?

At least CoE benefits more than just a select few but Iget your point.
 




Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
69,210
Withdean area
Herr Tubthumper said:
Quite. I get the gist of charities i.e. they do not make profit and provide benefit BUT private schools only provide benefit to a very select bunch of people.

I see from a post above, that some unversities have similar status, but they provide benefit to a far wider and larger section of society. I also note that, by law, schools are not allowed to be profitable in the UK.
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Independent schools generally don’t seek to or make profits. The annual surplus or deficit is carried forward. There aren’t shareholders.
 




Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
62,643
The Fatherland
Weststander said:
Advancing education is covered under The Charities Act.

Only half of independent schools are registered charities.

Charities do not need to exist for the wider public benefit.
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Points 1 and 3 I broadly agree with, education is a good thing and niche topics have to be included otherwise, for example, charities relating to rare illness would not qualify.

But, for me the general principle of schools benefiting a few, and being VAT exempt, does not sit right. I have zero issue with fee paying schools per se, just that if you want to use them then pay some VAT as well. Maybe even a special 'schools' rate.
 




Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
62,643
The Fatherland
Weststander said:
Independent schools generally don’t seek to or make profits. The annual surplus or deficit is carried forward. There aren’t shareholders.
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True. Schools, by law, are not allowed to make a profit in the UK.
 




Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
69,210
Withdean area
Herr Tubthumper said:
Points 1 and 3 I broadly agree with, education is a good thing and niche topics have to be included otherwise, for example, charities relating to rare illness would not qualify.

But, for me the general principle of schools benefiting a few, and being VAT exempt, does not sit right. I have zero issue with fee paying schools per se, just that if you want to use them then pay some VAT as well. Maybe even a special 'schools' rate.
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But worth noting, private schools across the EU we love (genuinely) are all exempt from VAT due to a directive.
 




beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,006
Herr Tubthumper said:
True. Schools, by law, are not allowed to make a profit in the UK.
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really? maybe state funded sector cannot. there's an small industry around English schools, then various other specialist training schools that are very much run as profit making businesses.
 


WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

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Jul 10, 2003
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Is it PotG? said:
1 in 5 adults in the UK has attended a private school as a child
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I tend to find official statistics carry more weight than someone's blog advertising private tutors that decided to 'do a survey'

The private schools in total are quite small, if measured by the proportion of the pupil population (6.4% in England in 2021, some 4% in Scotland, 2% in Wales and less than 1% in Northern Ireland).

https://ifs.org.uk/inequality/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Private-schools-and-inequality.pdf

The Institute of Fiscal studies are quite good in that regard :thumbsup:
 


Is it PotG?

Is it PotG?

Thrifty non-licker
Feb 20, 2017
25,434
Sussex by the Sea
WATFORD zero said:
I tend to find official statistics carry more weight than someone's blog advertising private tutors that decided to 'do a survey'

The private schools in total are quite small, if measured by the proportion of the pupil population (6.4% in England in 2021, some 4% in Scotland, 2% in Wales and less than 1% in Northern Ireland).

https://ifs.org.uk/inequality/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Private-schools-and-inequality.pdf

The Institute of Fiscal studies are quite good in that regard :thumbsup:
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That's not like for like.

I can help if you want.
 


B

Brian Fantana

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2006
7,544
In the field
My issue with the private schools thing is that in some areas of the country, where there are only a reasonably select number of 'good' state schools (my area of the North East being a prime example), is that the extra pressure created will a) make it harder to get places at those select state secondaries and b) have a knock-on impact on the house prices in the areas around the school.

As an aside, I'm not a huge fan (without any skin in the game here) of fees being increased by 20% for children already in private schools. Having to be moved mid-GCSEs for instance, because parents can't afford the increase, could be quite damaging for those pupils. Socially, at any age, being taken away from already-established social groups also doesn't strike me as a nice thing to happen. My daughter is at a state primary and there are two new pupils in her class this term, who have both been taken out of a local private school.

In general, it is not something I'm hugely in favour of at all. The 20% increase won't hit the richest of private school parents, but it will have a big impact on those parents who strive hard and probably financially stretch themselves in order to send their children to those schools. As above, I think ultimately the impact could actually be greatest, in certain areas of the country, on children from lower income households being essentially 'priced out' of a place in high quality state primary or secondary schools.
 






H

HalfaSeatOn

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2014
2,086
North West Sussex
The UK independent sector as a whole educates approximately 620,000 children in over 2,500 schools. The independent sector educates around 5.9% of the total number of school children in the UK and around 6.5% of the total number of school children in England. - source ISC
 


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