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[Politics] Protests/rioting in lots of places



N

nevergoagain

Well-known member
Jul 28, 2005
1,535
nowhere near Burgess Hill
Zeberdi said:
Quite a loaded post.

Being committed to a high security hospital (a maximum security MH unit) instead of a prison isn’t a particularly soft alternative to prison if it is in one of the high level security facilities and unlike a prison sentence, a person sentenced under section 37 of Mental Health Act can be held indefinitely on no fixed term, they can also be returned to prison if their treatment runs its course and their MH condition is under control - Ian Brady died in a mental hospital hospital; the Yorkshire Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe was initially sentenced to a high security hospital (although transferred to prison later in life when it was deemed his treatment had come to an end) - he eventually died behind bars and Ronnie Kray died in Broadmoor. The security arrangements are equivalent to a Cat B prison and inmates have no choice over what treatment they receive.

The Nottingham murderer was diagnosed with severe paranoid schizophrenia so his sentence was downgraded to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility (insanity plea) - the judge ordered him to be retained under s37/s41 of the Mental Health Act in a high security hospital facility - these people for obvious reasons, can not be managed anyway in a ‘normal prison‘ environment.

The only big issue is the one over whether some people kept in high security hospitals under s37 orders, like the Nottingham killer, should be able to claim benefits- something Starmer is promising to review having said it was unacceptable.

As for everyone who goes to a church or a mosque being conflated with terrorists/having a ‘murderous intent’ - that’s probably 5-6% of the population - which I agree would be very concerning indeed if true.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but the Nottingham murderer had already been detained securely once and then released back into society ?. There is also then I believe a chance that IF he were to show that he was "cured" that he could again be released rather than transferred back to prison. I don't think that will happen but if correct that loophole needs closing.
 








C

cunning fergus

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Jan 18, 2009
4,887
Zeberdi said:
Quite a loaded post.

Being committed to a high security hospital (a maximum security MH unit) instead of a prison isn’t a particularly soft alternative to prison if it is in one of the high level security facilities and unlike a prison sentence, a person sentenced under section 37 of Mental Health Act can be held indefinitely on no fixed term, they can also be returned to prison if their treatment runs its course and their MH condition is under control - Ian Brady died in a mental hospital hospital; the Yorkshire Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe was initially sentenced to a high security hospital (although transferred to prison later in life when it was deemed his treatment had come to an end) - he eventually died behind bars and Ronnie Kray died in Broadmoor. The security arrangements are equivalent to a Cat B prison and inmates have no choice over what treatment they receive.

The Nottingham murderer was diagnosed with severe paranoid schizophrenia so his sentence was downgraded to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility (insanity plea) - the judge ordered him to be retained under s37/s41 of the Mental Health Act in a high security hospital facility - these people for obvious reasons, can not be managed anyway in a ‘normal prison‘ environment.

The only big issue is the one over whether some people kept in high security hospitals under s37 orders, like the Nottingham killer, should be able to claim benefits- something Starmer is promising to review having said it was unacceptable.

As for everyone who goes to a church or a mosque being conflated with terrorists/having a ‘murderous intent’ - that’s probably 5-6% of the population - which I agree would be very concerning indeed if true.
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When Sutcliffe was originally convicted he was sent to Pankhurst, and possibly being stabbed in the face with a coffee jar when he got there affected his mental health so not long after that he was sent to Broadmoor. Go figure.

But then, I really couldn’t care less, I want murderers, terrorists and pedos to have terrifying experiences inside, which is why I don’t want them lavished at public expense in hospitals, regardless of how secure or awful they are. LET THEM ROT where it’s cheapest for the taxpayer.

That is why you miss the principal point on these cases; the public’s perception is that nowadays murderers and/or terrorists with “mental illness” are able to evade appropriate justice. High minded damp mattress sentiments aren’t cutting it.

We know that when our dear leader says the “full force of the law” will be bought to bare for criminals, then the public will expect a fired up justice system will come down hard on (say) a religious terrorist stabbing staff and customers in M&S in Burnley. Not see them shipped off to “hospital” to serve their sentence.

As for the wider issue of religious delusion, I’m pretty sure Sigamund Freud, not to mention Richard Dawkins have a clear view on the mental faculties of the unenlightened individuals that need a religious crutch to make it through their lives.

If “religious delusion” is a source of genuine mental illness that leads to violence, then why were none of the 7/7 bombers or Lee Rigby’s killers or all the others sent to hospital and not prison?

It’s a new pup, and the public can see it.
 


C

cunning fergus

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Jan 18, 2009
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hans kraay fan club said:
They are not being sent to the f***ing Priory or a BUPA Spa. They are effectively being sent to a prison with doctors.

But then you knew that.
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I want terrorists PUNISHED in PRISON, with spit, piss and shit in their food, I don’t want them being tucked up in HOSPITAL beds having their bumps TREATED by Doctors.

But then you knew that.
 




The Clamp

The Clamp

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cunning fergus said:
I want terrorists PUNISHED in PRISON, with spit, piss and shit in their food, I don’t want them being tucked up in HOSPITAL beds having their bumps TREATED by Doctors.

But then you knew that.
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Of course a sentence must have an element of punishment but we don’t want to create worse problems.

And despite populist perception, prisons and secure units are far from cushy holiday camps.

Apart from the loss of freedom you are locked in with some very, very nasty types. Including themselves I suppose.

I don’t know what “the answer” is but it’s unlikely to be dehumanising people.
 


Zeberdi

Zeberdi

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Oct 20, 2022
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cunning fergus said:
When Sutcliffe was originally convicted he was sent to Pankhurst, and possibly being stabbed in the face with a coffee jar when he got there affected his mental health so not long after that he was sent to Broadmoor. Go figure.
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Sutcliffe was transferred to Broadmoor after being diagnosed with Paranoid Schizophrenia - it was entirely appropriate he was moved to a maximum security mental health facility for his protection and others.

A crime requires that a person is fully aware of what they are doing and know that what they are doing is wrong and be in control of their actions:

A person diagnosed with severe paranoid schizophrenia does not necessarily fulfil those criteria at the time the offending act was committed. They can argue to have their sentence reduced to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility and the judge can commit the defendant to hospital under the MH act instead of prison. An insanity plea is a complete defence (ie they can not be guilty at all) but a judge can still commit the accused to a long term MH facility.
cunning fergus said:
The LET THEM ROT where it’s cheapest for the taxpayer.
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But they don’t all rot in prison - they get released back into the community with shortened sentences and on licence Do we want ex-offenders with severe MH problems released back into the community where their mental MH has likely to have declined significantly and where they are likely to reoffend, possibly with even more dire outcomes?

Personally I would rather they were kept indefinitely in a high security mental health unit on the grounds their MH is a risk to themselves and the community.
cunning fergus said:
That is why you miss the principal point on these cases; the public’s perception is that nowadays murderers and/or terrorists with “mental illness” are able to evade appropriate justice. High minded damp mattress sentiments aren’t cutting it.
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Answered above - it is not ‘appropriate justice’ to convict people of crimes if they had no knowledge of wrong doing and no autonomy at the time the act was committed- that’s not a political view, it’s the law and has been since the McNaghten case established the insanity plea in 1843 and diminished responsibility defence was introduced in the Homicide Act 1957.
cunning fergus said:
We know that when our dear leader says the “full force of the law” will be bought to bare for criminals, then the public will expect a fired up justice system will come down hard on (say) a religious terrorist stabbing staff and customers in M&S in Burnley. Not see them shipped off to “hospital” to serve their sentence.
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Answered above.
cunning fergus said:
As for the wider issue of religious delusion, I’m pretty sure Sigamund Freud, not to mention Richard Dawkins have a clear view on the mental faculties of the unenlightened individuals that need a religious crutch to make it through their lives.
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That’s purely your opinion - and again conflating authentic spiritual experiences and faith with MH delusions that often take on a religious narrative - Freud was talking about the latter- Dawkins is simply expressing views as an atheist.

84% of the World’s population identifies with a religious group so there are bound to be a proportion of that percentage with mental health problems.
cunning fergus said:
If “religious delusion” is a source of genuine mental illness that leads to violence, then why were none of the 7/7 bombers or Lee Rigby’s killers or all the others sent to hospital and not prison?
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Religious delusions are not the source of mental illness - people with Schizophrenia have delusions which often reflect a religious theme.

However - To be classified as a ‘religious delusion, the belief must be idiosyncratic, rather than accepted within a particular culture or subculture’ - conflating Islam or Christianity or any other religion per se as the source of mental illness which in turn leads to violence, is simply incorrect.

You are also conflating extremist and fundamentalist forms of acceptable religions/political ideology with MH illness - there maybe overlap but ‘terrorism’ is a matter of radicalism and cultural/religious intolerance rather than a MH issue.
cunning fergus said:
It’s a new pup, and the public can see it.
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It’s not new as explained above - the insanity plea has been around since the C19th and diminished responsibility as a partial defence to murder has been part of English Law since 1957.

However, if you think people with severe mental health problems should be treated the same way under the law and by the penal system as those who are fully aware of their wrongdoing and in control of their impulses then that is of course another issue.
 
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herecomesaregular

herecomesaregular

We're in the pipe, 5 by 5
Oct 27, 2008
4,654
Still in Brighton
cunning fergus said:
That is why you miss the principal point on these cases; the public’s perception is that nowadays murderers and/or terrorists with “mental illness” are able to evade appropriate justice. High minded damp mattress sentiments aren’t cutting it.


It’s a new pup, and the public can see it.
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Really? I think you might have a slightly warped perception of who you are talking "for".

Your posts are strange. Have you ever met someone having an episode of psychosis? Genuine question (and yes, I have having worked in adult mh). I have much sympathy for them and this does not in any way excuse some horrendous acts carried out by some people during psychosis. There by the grace of god go I.
 






jcdenton08

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Oct 17, 2008
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I think I’m right in saying that dangerous criminals sent to psychiatric hospitals on average spend considerably longer in mental health facilities than they would’ve done in prison. Usually because rather than a fixed term of imprisonment, then early license/day release after a set period with the parole, they are given indefinite orders of detention.

I believe it’s actually considerably harder to get released from clinical incarceration as you have to actively demonstrate you are no longer a threat, proving this over a long period of time (usually at least as long as the prison sentence would’ve been). During this time patients are often heavily medicated and the living conditions can be very nasty, with just as many unhinged and dangerous inmates as prison, if not more.

Watch a documentary on Broadmoor (there are some on YouTube). For all the talk of therapeutic treatments like art therapy, the majority of patients with psychosis or violent schizophrenia are simply medically contained with a combination of medication and physical restraint.
 
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Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Someone was on the cider last night
 












Bakero

Bakero

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Oct 9, 2010
14,897
Almería
cunning fergus said:
But then, I really couldn’t care less, I want murderers, terrorists and pedos to have terrifying experiences inside, which is why I don’t want them lavished at public expense in hospitals, regardless of how secure or awful they are. LET THEM ROT where it’s cheapest for the taxpayer.
Click to expand...

cunning fergus said:
I want terrorists PUNISHED in PRISON, with spit, piss and shit in their food, I don’t want them being tucked up in HOSPITAL beds having their bumps TREATED by Doctors.

But then you knew that.
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You sound like a bit of a psychopath tbh
 


BadFish

BadFish

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Oct 19, 2003
18,204
Bakero said:
You sound like a bit of a psychopath tbh
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Very glad that cunning (sic) fergus is not in charge of the justice system
 


hans kraay fan club

hans kraay fan club

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Mar 16, 2005
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Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
62,706
The Fatherland
BadFish said:
Very glad that cunning (sic) fergus is not in charge of the justice system
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Our resident nonconformist, his word not mine, actually works in compliance at a large corporate :lolol:

Rebel rebel!
 




Deportivo Seagull

Deportivo Seagull

I should coco
Jul 22, 2003
5,471
Mid Sussex
cunning fergus said:
I want terrorists PUNISHED in PRISON, with spit, piss and shit in their food, I don’t want them being tucked up in HOSPITAL beds having their bumps TREATED by Doctors.

But then you knew that.
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Fortunately for the rest of the civilised world you don’t get to make the decisions regards sentencing.

In the past many inmates in hospitals petitioned to get out of them and back in the prison system, as the hospitals were deemed to be very unpleasant compared to a ‘normal’ prison.

Did I say you are clearly an unpleasant arse?
 




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