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[Albion] You're the ref: Veltman v Rice

You're the ref: Veltman v Rice

  • No card to either player

    Votes: 99 17.4%

  • No card for Veltman; yellow card for Rice

    Votes: 255 44.7%

  • Yellow card for Veltman; nothing for Rice

    Votes: 13 2.3%

  • Yellow card for both players

    Votes: 118 20.7%

  • No card for Veltman; red card for Rice

    Votes: 37 6.5%

  • Red card for Veltman; nothing for Rice

    Votes: 3 0.5%

  • Red card for Veltman; yellow card for Rice

    Votes: 4 0.7%

  • Yellow card for Veltman; red card for Rice

    Votes: 36 6.3%

  • Red card for both players

    Votes: 5 0.9%
  • Total voters
    570


R

ROSM

Well-known member
Dec 26, 2005
6,744
Just far enough away from LDC
sjamesb3466 said:
Rice thought he was being clever by just flicking the ball away to delay the FK, 100% second yellow. Veltman was going to try to kick the ball against Rice to accuse him of failing to retreat which would have been harsh but Rice was the architect of his own downfall. Veltman was clever and did nothing wrong
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I am told that some brighton players heard the ref tell Rice that his 1st yellow was at the upper end of yellow and that he was lucky and needed to watch his step.

In which case a) rice should have been more careful and b) veltman possibly had an inkling what to do

Fault still sits with Rice though if he doesn't do what he did then veltman doesn't make contact
 




M

METALMICKY

Well-known member
Jan 30, 2004
6,810
Bold Seagull said:
The Rice one is straight forward. Ref blows for a free kick, free kick clearly awarded, Rice stops free kick being taken.

The Pedro one is less clear. Ball has gone out of play, but it’s in a grey area of the player trying to keep the ball in, he doesn’t kick the ball away as such, he kicks it straight to Raya. It has gone out by some margin, and Pedro knows that at the point he kicks it so I think he is lucky not to get booked, but can understand it’s not as cut and dry as stopping a free kick that has been given.
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The argument about consistency with the the Pedro incident is classic ' whataboutery'. How does Rice's thought process work? I'll just give the ball a sneaky little nudge away because I know that the ref wont book me because he didn't book Pedro. What a ridiculous gamble is that? How about Rice just gets out of the way and doesn't force the ref to make a decision?
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,908
Faversham
Bozza said:
What card(s) do you give?

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Why have you included 'red card' options?

Nobody anywhere has argued it was a red card offense.
 




Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,035
Goldstone
Bozza said:
What card(s) do you give?
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I think polls like this should be public. Some weird votes in there, probably by Palace fans
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,908
Faversham
The nonsense from Captain Black about JP kicking the ball away and not being booked..... that ball was out of play. It was a throw in. A fresh ball is at hand.

You get booked for kicking a ball away that is about to be used for a free kick. Entirely different.

(I think. I could be wrong).

Edit: just seem post #257 :thumbsup:
 
Last edited:


R

raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,298
Wiltshire
Good comment on Guardian match report:
"I
would respectfully argue that referees are supposed to apply the laws of the game and one of those laws states that the punishment for kicking the ball away after a freekick has been awarded is a yellow card.

The fact that Declan Rice had already been the subject of an entirely deserved booking before he fell foul of this particular law was entirely his own fault, not that of the referee. Joel Veltman played Rice like a violin with a commendable demonstration of s-housery."
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,908
Faversham
ROSM said:
I am told that some brighton players heard the ref tell Rice that his 1st yellow was at the upper end of yellow and that he was lucky and needed to watch his step.

In which case a) rice should have been more careful and b) veltman possibly had an inkling what to do

Fault still sits with Rice though if he doesn't do what he did then veltman doesn't make contact
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I just watched the replay clip that came up on google. I think it's from Sky. Within seconds, and before the ref has dealt with it, you can hear someone close to the camera shouting 'it's a second yellow'.
 


tedebear

tedebear

Legal Alien
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
17,100
In my computer
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
The nonsense from Captain Black about JP kicking the ball away and not being booked..... that ball was out of play. It was a throw in. A fresh ball is at hand.

You get booked for kicking a ball away that is about to be used for a free kick. Entirely different.

(I think. I could be wrong).
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From what I read the comparison to JP wasn't about the specific offense being the same as it isn't, it was about the non call at all for any offense although I've not read anyone suggesting what JP should have been booked for .....to my mind the rule does state kicking the ball away can be punished with a yellow card for delay of play (not being clear if it is in play or out of play or the impact of multi ball). There would have been an element of BHA supporters up in arms had someone done that to us so I do sort of see the point, although not sure I agree with it.

I'm just pleased for once something went our way against one of these sides...often feels like the opposite...
 






Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,035
Goldstone
Hamilton said:
That said, the difference between JP and Rice is that the former was preventing play to get started.
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The latter?

Hamilton said:
That said, the ball was moving so it can be argued that Rice didn’t prevent play starting.
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The ball was going to stop at some point. Rice deliberately kicked the ball away. It's a clear bookable offence.

Hamilton said:
And, Veltman did kick Rice.
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Rice was talking away and Veltman was going to kick the ball. Rice then stopped walking away and put his leg where the ball was. That's what caused the contact.


Hamilton said:
The only reason we as Albion fans know this is because we know Joel and he’s a master of the dark arts. A VAR may not know him so well.
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VAR had nothing to do with it.


Hamilton said:
Veltman is not going to get a warm welcome back at the Emirates that’s for sure.
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Somehow I think he'll cope :sneaky:
 




M

METALMICKY

Well-known member
Jan 30, 2004
6,810
Triggaaar said:
The latter?



The ball was going to stop at some point. Rice deliberately kicked the ball away. It's a clear bookable offence.



Rice was talking away and Veltman was going to kick the ball. Rice then stopped walking away and put his leg where the ball was. That's what caused the contact.




VAR had nothing to do with it.




Somehow I think he'll cope :sneaky:
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He'll love it and more importantly at the next home game he should get a rapturous reception! :)
 




Beanstalk

Beanstalk

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2017
3,029
London
I’ve come on here plenty to rip through a referee’s performance but Kavanagh had a great game yesterday. Got almost everything right, and was remarkably consistent in his decisions throughout the game, for both sides.

A really tough game to referee and to the dismay of the plastic surgery addict managing the Arsenal side will get top marks from the PGMOL for that performance.
 


PILTDOWN MAN

PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 15, 2004
19,558
Hurst Green
Bakero said:
This is one of those incidents that really highlights that many fans and pundits don't know the laws of the game.
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Pundits are indeed ignorant, and their ignorance and spouting crap, educates those bereft of any intelligence, those opinions that are plainly made up shit
 


B

Berty23

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2012
3,636
Not booking raya earlier was annoying. In injury time he was eventually booked but earlier in injury time he caught a cross and kicked it 22 seconds later.

I have rewatched the game and in the first minute Odegaard was calling for a ball to take a throw in when he thought the ball was out. I hope someone makes this point to arteta. The ball was not nearly out! He was still moaning when the ball was back with Arsenal. This is why players play until told to stop!
 

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O

osgood

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2011
1,563
brighton
martin tyler said:
Veltman was just smarter.
I’d be annoyed if I was an Arsenal fan by the lack of consistency- Pedro got away with a yellow first half.
In this incident Veltman looks like he’s going to play the ball up the line suckers Rice in and he’s daft enough to nick the ball away. Veltman was never playing a pass long Minth was 15 yards away.
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The difference between the Pedro kicking the ball away ,(so no advantage was gained ) was that the ball had gone out of play
The Rice incident the ball was in play ,therefor he can be considered to be delaying play ,so can be considered to gain his team an advantage
 






O

osgood

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2011
1,563
brighton
Surrey Phil said:
Because the ball went into touch and we’ve now got multi ball, so an Arsenal player could have just taken a thrown in with another ball. Rice’s booking was for preventing us taking a quick free kick which the new rules this season are designed to clamp down on!
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...Is the right answer !
 


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