[TV] UKIP: The First 100 days. Channel 4 - 9:00PM

[Albumen]

Having not seen the programme I feel I am in the same position as the 1000's of the Kippers than complained about it.

Great programming.

 

[cunning fergus]

The basic tenant that binds all the parties, including Sinn Fein, to the Good Friday agreement is this (f*** sake why do I have to repeat myself?):

"The agreement reached was that Northern Ireland would remain part of the United Kingdom until a majority of the people of Northern Ireland and of the Republic of Ireland wished otherwise. Should that happen, then the British and Irish governments are under "a binding obligation" to implement that choice. "

That's exactly what I stated in my previous post. It is up to the electorate of the Republic and the 6 Counties to decide who they want in charge, and if they choose Sinn Fein, then (just as the Greeks have done with Syriza), they are grown up enough to deal with it.

To paraphrase - if they want 'out' let them go. The agreement DOES NOT specify that NI will join the Republic - I cannot over emphasize this, it DOES NOT say that, it just specifies they will leave the UK. It implicitly allows for an independant state, seperate from both the UK and The Irish Republic. It also allows for the fact that, over time, there may come a point where even Nationalists might actually change their minds and see that becoming a Republic is what they want. I know that might astonish you, but people can actually change their minds, over a period of time.

There still seems to be a groundswell in this Country that think that the Irish are either too stupid, or too irresponsible, to make their own decisions.

Look, as I suspect you are young, and I expect you have stuff to do half term, I will try and make this short and simple for you; I asked you why do you think people vote for Sinn Fein.

I didn't ask about the Good Friday Agreement or whether you thought it was a good thing.

This is an important lesson for you, because when you go for a job interview remember to answer the question you are being asked not bimble off on a tangent, the interviewer may think you are an imbecile.

To save you time I will give you the answer, here is (drum roll) what Sinn Fein stand for............

"Sinn Féin is a 32-County party striving for an end to partition on the island of Ireland and the establishment of a democratic socialist republic. The achievement of a United Ireland is within our reach and unity offers the best future for all the people of Ireland. In these harsh economic times, it is also the best way forward from a financial and social perspective.

90 years after partition, as communities divided by the border become increasingly reintegrated, there is a growing pull towards reunification. As old allegiances change and people from loyalist backgrounds consider voting for a republican party because it best represents their social and economic interests, the potential for dialogue with those from the unionist community about their place in a united Ireland becomes possible."

Check it out..............

http://www.sinnfein.ie/what-sinn-fein-stands-for

So, and back to topic, those who vote for Sinn Fein dont care about their MPs taking expenses and doing nothing for it (you said earlier you gave credit to Sinn Fein so no doubt you have no problem with them doing that).

In fact they are HAPPY to see them take British taxpayers money, money that will help further their primary cause of a united Ireland, becuase that is how the deomcratic system works.

Many UKIP voters will undoubtedly share exactly the same motive in voting for UKIP as their Sinn Fein voting counterparts, (and Plaid Cymru and SNP) as they share the same goal (which is not devolution).

Now, I trust that's not too difficult for a young scamp like you to understand.

Enjoy the rest of your holidays.

 

[cunning fergus]

Hmmmm, if you borrow more than you can afford to pay back, and then welch on the repayment, don't be surprised if the Court baliffs come a'knocking.

The problem with Greece is they are addicted to a lifestyle they can't pay for. They think they can have 'something for nothing', specifcally an unlimited line of credit when their credit rating is nosediving pronto, and they've got nothing to offer as security. Would you give a recovering alchoholic a bottle of Vodka, knowing that it might tip him over the edge, or would you force him to go 'cold turkey'.

Greece has to face up to it's problems, it can't just sweep it under the carpet and pretend it wil go away. The first thing they've got to do is start paying their taxes, instead of funding their public services by flashing the European Bank Credit card, because the European Bank are taking the credit card away and closing the account.

My, you are a busy bee.

This lifestyle has been there for many years, and they were reaily accepted into the Eurozone club with that lifestyle. Now they are in the club its everyone's problem, and if the other Eurozone members want to bin them out then the markets will know the currency is doomed.

But it was always doomed, and for the very point I made about democracy.

How can you have economic union without political union?

This was the very question that came up time and again during last years devolution debate..................and the simple answer is you can't. Its all or nothing.

The consequence is that we have a democratically elected Greek Govt who were elected on a mandate to end the current austerity programme (whether justly or unjectly doesnt matter) imposed on it by institutions that are not answerable democratically to the Greek people. So there are two broad choices.

If you support democracy then you deal with the Greek Government but you end any meaningful credibility in the Euro with the financial markets.
If you support the EU then you shit on deomcracy and mug off the Greek electorate and end any meaningful credibility of the EU with the member state electorates.

What are you for democracy or totalitarianism?

 

[GT49er]

You have NOT read or understood my post at all.

Yes I have. Please don't insult my intelligence.

I am talking about FRANCE and GERMANY starting another war , WITH EACH OTHER. If the EU were to disintergrate it could well happen. To say otherwise is to ignore pretty much all of 20th Century European History.

Your argument seems to be made on the rather far-fetched assumption that Britain leaving would mean the break up of the EU. Absolute rot; the Germans and the French and some of the other mainland European countries love it, and it can continue on its own sweet way - just without us.

That is why I didn't bother discussing the (im)possibility of a Franco German war.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

This is an important lesson for you, because when you go for a job interview remember to answer the question you are being asked not bimble off on a tangent, the interviewer may think you are an imbecile.

Whoa there.

First of all, you were the one who brought up Sinn Fein in this thread - (see post 48).

Secondly, I have never supported Sinn Fein. That does not mean that I cannot acknowledge their viewpoint. If you wish to compromise, it is well known (when talking to someone of polar opposite views) to recognise their right to hold that viewpoint. Bearing this in mind, I cannot, in all conciousness, explain why a Sinn Fein voter votes the way they do. By all means ask the question, but don't expect me to justify the political decision of someone who I've never met. I think that's the only way I can fairly deal with your question. It's outside my competence, so there's no point shouting me down for it.

Thirdly, I respect their participation in the Good Friday Agreement. ( Where did I ever agree with their policy on Westminster expenses ? )

Fourthly, I do not think they should clain expenses for not fullfilling their role in Westminster. Can I make that catagorically clear here and now. Neither should UKIP apropos Strasbourg, not now, not in the past, and not in the future.

Fifthly, there are people in Greece in desperate straights right now, it may well have been their own fault, and the fault of other EU States for lending them money they cannot pay back, but I don't think we should hang them out to dry over a few quid (ok it's quite a lot).

Sixthly, if all parties in NI can work to achieve an end to the troubles, then it cannot be beyond the wit of man to find a solution acceptable to both Greece and the European Bank. Compromise . Accept a more affordable repayment schedule, write off some debt, whatever, but don't for f*** sake make their problem worse by giving them another loan. It's not for me to tell anyone here how to solve the problem, it's up to them alone. Does it matter if the markets react - not really. Markets love stability, they detest uncertainty, so make a deal, and stick to it.

Finally, just to correct your WILD assumptions ( and because you're starting to sound a bit patronising ), I was born in the same year that England won the World Cup.

 

[cunning fergus]

Whoa there.

First of all, you were the one who brought up Sinn Fein in this thread - (see post 48).

Secondly, I have never supported Sinn Fein. That does not mean that I cannot acknowledge their viewpoint. If you wish to compromise, it is well known (when talking to someone of polar opposite views) to recognise their right to hold that viewpoint. Bearing this in mind, I cannot, in all conciousness, explain why a Sinn Fein voter votes the way they do. By all means ask the question, but don't expect me to justify the political decision of someone who I've never met. I think that's the only way I can fairly deal with your question. It's outside my competence, so there's no point shouting me down for it.

Thirdly, I respect their participation in the Good Friday Agreement. ( Where did I ever agree with their policy on Westminster expenses ? )

Fourthly, I do not think they should clain expenses for not fullfilling their role in Westminster. Can I make that catagorically clear here and now. Neither should UKIP apropos Strasbourg, not now, not in the past, and not in the future.

Fifthly, there are people in Greece in desperate straights right now, it may well have been their own fault, and the fault of other EU States for lending them money they cannot pay back, but I don't think we should hang them out to dry over a few quid (ok it's quite a lot).

Sixthly, if all parties in NI can work to achieve an end to the troubles, then it cannot be beyond the wit of man to find a solution acceptable to both Greece and the European Bank. Compromise . Accept a more affordable repayment schedule, write off some debt, whatever, but don't for f*** sake make their problem worse by giving them another loan. It's not for me to tell anyone here how to solve the problem, it's up to them alone. Does it matter if the markets react - not really. Markets love stability, they detest uncertainty, so make a deal, and stick to it.

Finally, just to correct your WILD assumptions ( and because you're starting to sound a bit patronising ), I was born in the same year that England won the World Cup.

Ha, ok, all very well, however you are still not providing your view on why voters vote for Sinn Fein?

I raised I it post 49 because no one gnashes their teeth about the very obvious construct of Sinn Fein's political objectives, their core voters political beliefs, the conduct of their MPs and our prevailing democratic system.

You may well disagree with it but they are the rules, and no one is advocating any change. Given your support for their "cooperation" in the peace process I am surprised you want to destabilise the current agreement. I suspect if HM Govt pulled the plug on their access to expenses etc. it would not be long before there was unrest in NI.

Is that really what you want?

Nonetheless this dynamic is similar with UKIP, like it or not they are a legitimate political party, and have a unequivocal mandate from their electorate. They are not democratic vandals, they are part of the democratic landscape. If you support democratic diversity and choice then in fact they should be celebrated.

It is therefore absurd to criticise them for not taking part in the EU process, just like Sinn Fein in the UK, they don't want to be part of it...........that is WHY they got the votes in the first place.

Politically compromise is usually shit, you think it's OK, however it's really just a staging point. You may think all us OK, and relatively it is, however when you are dealing with diametrically opposed positions you can't comprimise.

Regardless of why Greece got where it is now, the reality is the democratic choice made by their electorate is either relevant or not. As it stands their choice is less relevant than the interests of Germany...........

We can see it, and it is interesting that the EU will use democracy to beat Russia and their role in Ukraine yet they are willing to ignore the democratic mandate of a long time member state, and participant of the euro.

Still, you want in..........good luck with that.

 

[Soulman]

One of Labour's most senior figures has resigned from the party and will be supporting Ukip because of Ed Miliband's failure to offer a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union. Harriet Yeo, who was chairman of Labour's ruling body between 2012 and 2013, is so disillusioned with Mr Miliband's refusal to offer a vote that she will be throwing her support behind Nigel Farage's party. She represents the most senior Labour figure to switch allegiances to Ukip to date, although there are suggestions that several Labour MPs are considering defecting.

Mrs Yeo was previously chairman of the National Executive Committee, which oversees the Labour Party, and president of the Transport and Salaried Staffs' Association union and has been involved in the trade union movement for more than 20 years. The Telegraph understands that while Mrs Yeo has resigned her membership of the Labour Party she has not formally joined Ukip. However, she will be giving the party hher support in the run up to the General Election.

Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, said: "I'm delighted that UKIP can now count upon the support of such respected figure as Harriet Yeo. "A life long Trade Unionist and Labour Party member who served as Chair of Ed Miliband's NEC she is yet another voice calling for Britain to have a choice about its future. We are welcoming support from across the board and Harriet's support is eveidence of this". Mr Miliband has come under repeated pressures from his own MPs and Labour party donors to commit to a referendum on Europe.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...Labour-figure-dumps-Ed-Miliband-for-Ukip.html

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Millions of people have never had a problem with people coming here to work, it's just the increased numbers year on year people are worried about, because in people's minds it means less opportunities for everyone, more pressure on our services and so on. Even if you stopped people claiming benefits it still doesn't resolve the issue on the numbers. We all know the only way to truly get control is to have a referendum on the EU and get out. Why doesn't any politician want to listen to this part. Millibands comments like all the other parties makes no sense and this is why they are losing working class votes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...onted-by-working-class-voter-over-Europe.html

 

[cunning fergus]

I agree. It should be a sackable offence to not turn up to your job!

So, the objectives of all political parties must include an intention to willingly engage in the Parliaments they are elected to regardless of the parties political objectives?

You would therefore sack the Sinn Fein MPs in HoP and do what exactly?

Run another election but ban Sinn Fein?

You would sack all UKIP MEPs despite them getting MORE votes than any other party.

The truth here is that you don't like democracy, you only want it when it suits your own political ends................now don't tell me, you are an enthusiastic supporter of the EU?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

One of the reasons I voted for UKIP in the European elections was exactly BECAUSE UKIP muck about there. If UKIP hadn't been standing I wouldn't have bothered voting and then I'd have been accused of apathy. I'd have become of of those people many statisticians suggest supports the status quo because I haven't voted. But as a rabid anti-EU person how could I vote for any party at the European elections that actually supports an organisation I'd like to see the back of ?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Another incident.
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1180...ng_by_PCSOs_because_of_his_political_beliefs/

 

[Captain Sensible]

One of Labour's most senior figures has resigned from the party and will be supporting Ukip because of Ed Miliband's failure to offer a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union. Harriet Yeo, who was chairman of Labour's ruling body between 2012 and 2013, is so disillusioned with Mr Miliband's refusal to offer a vote that she will be throwing her support behind Nigel Farage's party. She represents the most senior Labour figure to switch allegiances to Ukip to date, although there are suggestions that several Labour MPs are considering defecting.

Mrs Yeo was previously chairman of the National Executive Committee, which oversees the Labour Party, and president of the Transport and Salaried Staffs' Association union and has been involved in the trade union movement for more than 20 years. The Telegraph understands that while Mrs Yeo has resigned her membership of the Labour Party she has not formally joined Ukip. However, she will be giving the party hher support in the run up to the General Election.

Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, said: "I'm delighted that UKIP can now count upon the support of such respected figure as Harriet Yeo. "A life long Trade Unionist and Labour Party member who served as Chair of Ed Miliband's NEC she is yet another voice calling for Britain to have a choice about its future. We are welcoming support from across the board and Harriet's support is eveidence of this". Mr Miliband has come under repeated pressures from his own MPs and Labour party donors to commit to a referendum on Europe.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...Labour-figure-dumps-Ed-Miliband-for-Ukip.html

This woman has become disillusioned with the trade union movement it says in the article. Id say this has a lot to do with her spat. Any trade unionist with a brain would never consider leaving the EU now. It's directives on workers right go beyond that of uk employment law so are good for workers in general. Supporting a party led by a city toff with a bunch of extreme Tory boys and then lower down, BNP bigots, is against everything a socialist or unionist stands for. But then that's why she's done it. Note she's hasn't joined ukip, just says she will support them. Says it all.

 

[Captain Sensible]

F**k all because the Swiss Economy is not on its arse unlike the EU and nonsensical to think it would do so in the case of the UK doing the same.

Well the Swiss and Norwegians have had to take on a lot of EU migrants in the free movements and many other of the EU's directives in exchange for trade concessions with the EU. 1 in 4 in Switzerland are foreign nationals. The uk is nowhere near that. Hence the Swiss vote recently to cap immigration from the EU. It will be a very difficult thing for them to negotiate. With the removal of the minimum exchange rate Switzerland is having export problems to the EU. The quotas will most likely be watered down in the Swiss Parliment after negotiation with the EU.
I do believe that quotas and limits are the way forward and I hope the Swiss can negotiate this to their advantage. It may open the door to other renegotiations from other nations. The fact that Switzerland are not officially in the EU matters not. They are in the EU in all but name. But to compare Switzerland to the uk is nonsense. One is economically hugely successfull, runs a surplus, has almost no unemployment, and has excellent social and pension care for it's citizens, and the other is the UK. Even the Swiss have to make concessions to the EU in exchange for trade. To think that Britain could be outside the EU and not have to still give concessions in exchange for trade is foolish.