[Misc] Will the Unions bring everyone to their knees?

[Bold Seagull]

Blah blah, everyone else’s fault, blah blah poor me.

Grow up.

Always the victim. Every single thread he’s on.

 

[clapham_gull]

View attachment 149044

Oh the politics of envy.

 

[BadFish]

Let's not get into all this again.

I believe unions are driven by power-obsessed people, and they predominantly are just left, politicians, wanting to cause havoc to the economy and public in general. They hide under the umbrella of good Samaritan's, byt really are sheep in wolves clothing, IMO.

I still have not seen anything wrong with what I have said?

Does it concern you at all that what 'you believe' runs entirely consistent with the narrative presented by the right wing press?

I note that Harry has dissected your beliefs further to highlight the inaccuracies and poor logic.

My advice would be to read a little more widely in this area and consider the sources of what you believe.

You are complaining that no one is agreeing with your opening statement on this issue. Maybe this could tell you that the opposing point of view has done validity?

It has also been noted by a few that this thread has caused them to find out more about the situation. They have then find themselves more in support of the Union.

Maybe this should tell you something?

Sent from my M2010J19CG using Tapatalk

 

[rogersix]

The questions needed to be answered by the heavily weighted numbers of NSC members.

No one took this thread on when it was front page news.

Wtf was wrong with levelling up here then Clampy?




I am not sure if posters want me to answer all their questions, as I am totally outnumbered and I don't have all day to read and respond and will not spend all my spare minutes in doing so.

levelling up is the boss on half a million whilst the workers get an effective pay cut. does that make sense to you?

two reasons why you're totally outnumbered, mouldy; 1, you're provocative; 2, you're wrong, it's not tricky

 

[Simster]

This country needs a wage cap, to include footballers.

This is the stupidest post on the thread.

Some going when the OP is Mouldy Boots. Well played.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Oh the politics of envy.

 

[Eric the meek]

What I don't understand is why the RMT are asking for a pay rise of only 7%, when the rate of inflation is 9.1%. Unless they arrived at the figure 7% when inflation was 7% or less.

It seems obvious that they should ask for, and have, at least the rate of inflation, otherwise it's a real terms pay cut. Am I missing something?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Oh the politics of envy.

Personally I think “the politics of envy” is one of the silliest expressions that can be bandied around in politics. Billy Bragg is a decent bloke. I have met and talked to him. He “cares”. My brother-in-law owns a house in the village where he lives (lived?) in Dorset, and he was noted for getting sensibly involved in local community matters there.

It’s most likely to be used by people on the right politically who are more likely to be motivated by feelings of envy or jealousy - I’ve got a big car but I want a bigger, more expensive and powerful one so that people will respect me more. I am myself not impressed particularly by the car someone might drive.

For me, the “politics of envy” is more likely to be used by people who have much less of a sense of justice, fairness or human worth. I can remember the (perfectly decent) Tory MP George Young years ago making a comment about beggars being the sort of people you have to step over on the way to the Opera. Well, George, they are people too.

In terms of judging people, I will always remember seeing a Southern TV (or BBC South) documentary about homelessness years ago. They were talking to someone on the street in Brighton who was drinking. He made the comment: “people assume that I am homeless because I am drinking. They never work out that I might be drinking BECAUSE I am homeless.”

Is it right that people should have made obscene profits, and been enabled to do so by dodgy government actions, when others are in some places now not only having to choose between heating and eating but perhaps can’t afford to do either?

The likes of our Prime Minister and those around him don’t have a clue about what goes on for ordinary people. How can you imagine what a difference a £20 per week uplift in Universal Credit can make to someone when you have had plans to build a £150,000 tree house for your at the time 6month old son and have it paid for by someone else. I’m not, though, envious of Boris Johnson. I despise him and his total lack of humanity.

 

[Machiavelli]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...flation-boris-johnson-workers-price-windfalls

 

[rippleman]

What I don't understand is why the RMT are asking for a pay rise of only 7%, when the rate of inflation is 9.1%. Unless they arrived at the figure 7% when inflation was 7% or less.

It seems obvious that they should ask for, and have, at least the rate of inflation, otherwise it's a real terms pay cut. Am I missing something?

No!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Personally I think “the politics of envy” is one of the silliest expressions that can be bandied around in politics. Billy Bragg is a decent bloke. I have met and talked to him. He “cares”. My brother-in-law owns a house in the village where he lives (lived?) in Dorset, and he was noted for getting sensibly involved in local community matters there.

It’s most likely to be used by people on the right politically who are more likely to be motivated by feelings of envy or jealousy - I’ve got a big car but I want a bigger, more expensive and powerful one so that people will respect me more. I am myself not impressed particularly by the car someone might drive.

For me, the “politics of envy” is more likely to be used by people who have much less of a sense of justice, fairness or human worth. I can remember the (perfectly decent) Tory MP George Young years ago making a comment about beggars being the sort of people you have to step over on the way to the Opera. Well, George, they are people too.

In terms of judging people, I will always remember seeing a Southern TV (or BBC South) documentary about homelessness years ago. They were talking to someone on the street in Brighton who was drinking. He made the comment: “people assume that I am homeless because I am drinking. They never work out that I might be drinking BECAUSE I am homeless.”

Is it right that people should have made obscene profits, and been enabled to do so by dodgy government actions, when others are in some places now not only having to choose between heating and eating but perhaps can’t afford to do either?

The likes of our Prime Minister and those around him don’t have a clue about what goes on for ordinary people. How can you imagine what a difference a £20 per week uplift in Universal Credit can make to someone when you have had plans to build a £150,000 tree house for your at the time 6month old son and have it paid for by someone else. I’m not, though, envious of Boris Johnson. I despise him and his total lack of humanity.

I can put it more simply…politics of envy is used when the person has no, or has run out of, arguments.

 

[Machiavelli]

What I don't understand is why the RMT are asking for a pay rise of only 7%, when the rate of inflation is 9.1%. Unless they arrived at the figure 7% when inflation was 7% or less.

It seems obvious that they should ask for, and have, at least the rate of inflation, otherwise it's a real terms pay cut. Am I missing something?

No, you're not missing something. The RMT are seeking a 7% pay offer. This isn't a pay rise, it is, as you point out, a pay cut. The key difference is between 'nominal' and 'real' pay awards: the former is a pay rise but in name only, because the award doesn't meet the rise in inflation; the latter is how the pay award sits alongside the rise in inflation -- if it is lower than the rate of inflation, then it constitutes a real-terms pay cut; if higher, it's a real-terms pay rise.
Unlike the claims of some on here -- see, for instance, [MENTION=2393]Uncle C[/MENTION] -- the RMT are only seeking a pay offer that is a cut, but one that is less of a cut than their employers are offering.

 

[Simster]

What I don't understand is why the RMT are asking for a pay rise of only 7%, when the rate of inflation is 9.1%. Unless they arrived at the figure 7% when inflation was 7% or less.

It seems obvious that they should ask for, and have, at least the rate of inflation, otherwise it's a real terms pay cut. Am I missing something?

What it tells me more than anything is that the RMT are absolutely not being greedy. It recognises there is a massive inflationary cost of living increase and is prepared to suck up some of it, but not all of it when its members are being threatened with redundancy while management within the industry are awarding themselves massive pay rises and golden handshakes, completely oblivious to the world we're living in.

 

[Eric the meek]

What it tells me more than anything is that the RMT are absolutely not being greedy. It recognises there is a massive inflationary cost of living increase and is prepared to suck up some of it, but not all of it when its members are being threatened with redundancy while management within the industry are awarding themselves massive pay rises and golden handshakes, completely oblivious to the world we're living in.

Agreed. To put this into context, I understand that the employers have offered 2.2% (no doubt with conditions attached), which would mean a real terms pay cut of....6.9%.

I know that inflation is a moveable feast, but currently, our inflation rate of 9.1% is forecast to increase further, and certainly not down to 2.2%.

Edit: Your strapline is the best I've seen on here.

 

[beorhthelm]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...flation-boris-johnson-workers-price-windfalls

this is such a terrible take on the economics. commodities rise in price is mostly based on market supply/demand, not consequence of inflation. they lead inflation. where cost go up due to inflation but market price doesnt respond they soak the losses (or go out of business), which they do because of massive capital invested and expects returns over a long period. windfull taxes is short termism that signals to avoid investment. what we need is policy changes to encourage exploration to increase supply and reduce price. do we really want to tax energy, food, and metal production just as we're facing shortages?

 

[Machiavelli]

I can put it more simply…politics of envy is used when the person has no, or has run out of, arguments.

Indeed. It's the most hilarious accusation. Why would I/we be envious of that lot? We want to get rid of them, not be like them.

 

[Lever]

"I believe unions are driven by power-obsessed people, and they predominantly are just left, politicians, wanting to cause havoc to the economy and public in general. They hide under the umbrella of good Samaritan's, byt really are sheep in wolves clothing"

I can dissect this for you if you wish.

First, "I believe". Well, I don't do religion, so we could end the converstion there. But I won't...

"unions are driven by power-obsessed people". Let us consider this. Unions have existed for, what, 100 years? If their objective is to gain power, they have failed. They have no power. Yet they exists. Could this be because they are NOT obsessed by gaining power? Maybe they (the leaders) are elected by their memebers to pusue the interests of their membership?

"wanting to cause havoc to the economy and public in general." I am tempted to say that this statement is simply childish. However, let's give it some adult attention for a moment.....So unions are organizations that want to cause havoc (etc.). And yet workers join unions. So are you suggesting that employees are primarily interested in causing havoc? Crush, kill, destroy?

I'll leave it there. I don't think you have bothered to think any of this through. If people formed organizations to destroy society (which is anarchy) you might have thought there would be something that resonates with this, in their manifesto, and in their behaviour. Sabotage, bombs and that sort of thing, surely?

I could add further comment but . . . .

It may be useful to try to see the world through the eyes of others. It's called empathy. The alternative is to see the world through your own eyes only, and define anyone different as perverse and enemy. And define any view different from your own as wrong, by definition. And then to attribute all the evils of the world to that which you disapprove. It is very seductive, all that, and your brainstem will keep on telling you that you are right (if you let it). But it is liberating to put yourself in shoes not your own, and take a walk in them, from time to time.

All that said....it can be extremely disruptive to expose one's vulnerability and if you don't feel up to it, that's fine. I was over 40 before I was strong enough to make friends with the enemy (only to find they were not enemy at all).

All the best, as always

I genuinely admire your herculean efforts to raise self-awareness in a self-obsessed, jingoistic, alt-right pariah. His politics were, are and probably always will be wholly about himself. He simply cannot see anything beyond that, which is why he takes any criticism of his views personally.....

Thank you for the thumbs up again, [MENTION=35196]Is it PotG?[/MENTION] .... nice to know you are still floating around in the background. What about some written support now?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Let's not get into all this again.

I believe unions are driven by power-obsessed people, and they predominantly are just left, politicians, wanting to cause havoc to the economy and public in general. They hide under the umbrella of good Samaritan's, byt really are sheep in wolves clothing, IMO.

I still have not seen anything wrong with what I have said?

Give me an example, if I think I am wrong I will say and have done in the past, but not everyone chooses to see that,some have try to brand me, including yourself.....i think you know what I mean.

My experience of trade unions and trade union leaders is exactly the opposite of your own. Trade Union officers ( I.e employees) and senior people are normally eminently sensible, approachable and enormously reasonable people. Mick Lynch of the RMT has in fact drawn grudging praise from right wing press and pundits for the way he has dealt with interviews and debunked the rubbish that some people have attempted to tar him with.

It is militant trade union members who are more likely to be wanting to put forward the concept of class war and any loony left things that people would want to accuse the unions of.

I write as a retired Trade Unionist who actually resigned from Len McCluskey’s union because of his repeated attempts to be what I saw as a kingmaker, espousing the causes of firstly Ed Miliband, who in my judgement was OK but it should have been his brother, and then more disastrously Jeremy Corbyn. If McCluskey had stuck to being a Trade Union leader…………

 

[Machiavelli]

Will the CWU bring everyone to their knees? Or, have the CWU got off their knees?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jun/30/bt-staff-vote-for-first-national-strike-in-35-years

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

thats nice except the public want to use the railway at the weekends. people often complain about poor service to Falmer on Sunday matchdays, now we know why.

I don't have a problem with public transport running on weekends - and neither do the RMT - but it should be voluntary and workers should be compensated accordingly. - and should be the case in every single industry.

Why should anybody get payed extra for working on a Sunday. When applying for a job are aware Railways open 7 days. Different matter if changing someones contract from 5 days

Workers were forced to work weekends during Victorian times - indeed the reason why football matches began at 3pm on a Saturday was because workers won a half day on Saturday in the second half of the nineteenth century.

As I stated above - there is no problem with working at weekends - but it should be voluntary, with workers compensated accordingly and should apply across all industries.

The idea of levelling up is a good one.

Its a shame the Unions are not applying the same principles within their own membership. With train drivers etc getting in excess of £70 K wouldn't it be a nice gesture if they gave up a pay rise so the money can be given to rail cleaners etc.

But no, they have their noses in the trough like everyone else, and are using the collective power of the lowest paid workers to get more for themselves.

Noses in the trough - I think you are mistaking the tran drivers for the private transport companies who are raking in £500million a year in profits.