[Politics] Which gender do you most identify with?

[The Clamp]

Just had an interesting chat with Mrs T about this.

Gender - does it matter?

Well if what I see when I meet someone and they look like a woman, can I assume they are happy to be treated as a woman?

If they aren't, if I say 'she'/'her' what then?

Only fair - they can say to me "'I prefer 'they'" or even "'he'".

Fine, I will remember that, and we move on.

I was an external examiner at a medical school last year. One of the other examiners was clearly born male but presented as female (in hairstyle and dress, but not in stubble, in nose, in jaw or in voice). They used a female name. That was sufficient for our communication. It would have been rude of me to inquire if they had a cock, if they ever had a cock, or if they planned to chop it off. Or indeed what gender they identified as, given that we used names to communicate, not "agent HWT, male, 65 years of almost unblemished heterosexuality" etc. I mean, Christ.

I do appreciate that this is momentous stuff for some, but really. I mean, really? Oh well.

I think you’re overthinking all this.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think you’re overthinking all this.

Could be.

Wanna discuss?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

And what, exactly, is it that you think "we" are experiencing?

A new era of brain washing is upon us.

No longer is it just the domain of Religion.

It's now the domain of the VERY creepy and groomer like element of the left.

As went that chant in a Pride march the other week, they're here, they're queer, they're coming for your children.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I am talking specifically about a particular group of fundamentalist bigots from the US. They are at the forefront of the discrimination that is happening to trans people in that country and have been condemning LGBT people for decades and encouraging their congregations to do the same.

No offence intended to any other people who have religious faith. However, you'd find it hard to deny that all of the major organised religions have, to put it mildly, a pretty shoddy history in terms of their treatment of LGBT people.

And yet in 2023 the T's of the LGBT have become the biggest bullies of those communities.

Trans activists love them some violence.

 

[sparkie]

Not really into all this crap, as far as i know ur either male (born with a penis) or female ( born with a virgina), can someine explain what CIS is. Also it would help having a description as to what they all mean.

CIS is short for CISSY.

 

[Guinness Boy]

A new era of brain washing is upon us.

No longer is it just the domain of Religion.

It's now the domain of the VERY creepy and groomer like element of the left.

As went that chant in a Pride march the other week, they're here, they're queer, they're coming for your children.

Yes, with all that power the left has, what with 13 years of Tory rule here, Trump followed by Republicans controlling the house, Modi in India and Putin in Russia.

The actual fact is that 0.1% of people in the UK identify as Trans and not all of them have had the operation. In my kids’ school of over 500 not a single one has actually changed gender physically and only a small handful use different pronouns.

I think you just don’t like a noisy lobby on Twitter and Tiktok. What about their freedom of speech?

 

[The Clamp]

I’m inter sex. In fact it’s one of my favourite things.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I am talking specifically about a particular group of fundamentalist bigots from the US. They are at the forefront of the discrimination that is happening to trans people in that country and have been condemning LGBT people for decades and encouraging their congregations to do the same.

No offence intended to any other people who have religious faith. However, you'd find it hard to deny that all of the major organised religions have, to put it mildly, a pretty shoddy history in terms of their treatment of LGBT people.

Fair enough. There are such fundamentalist bigots over here as well, and in terms of history, it’s not just the Faiths which have treated LGBTetc people badly.

but the Methodist Church (and others) condemn Conversion Therapy, for example, and the Minister of my own Church was very proud and happy recently to carry out the first same sex wedding in the Church earlier this year after the Church Council (ruling body) had voted almost unanimously (one against) to allow same sex weddings.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Yes, with all that power the left has, what with 13 years of Tory rule here, Trump followed by Republicans controlling the house, Modi in India and Putin in Russia.

The actual fact is that 0.1% of people in the UK identify as Trans and not all of them have had the operation. In my kids’ school of over 500 not a single one has actually changed gender physically and only a small handful use different pronouns.

I think you just don’t like a noisy lobby on Twitter and Tiktok. What about their freedom of speech?

Why waffle on about a bunch of people that have no relevance to kids?

The kids are brainwashed by social media, that isn't controlled by any of the people you mentioned

I don't like adults who push their sexual ideologies onto children. They remind me of the rock spiders that need locking up.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

A Gerbil

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Yep! I know what I Like, and I like what I Know.

Did you get in to the Fire Escape trade eventually?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Why waffle on about a bunch of people that have no relevance to kids?

The kids are brainwashed by social media, that isn't controlled by any of the people you mentioned

I don't like adults who push their sexual ideologies onto children. They remind me of the rock spiders that need locking up.

The people I mentioned have the power to stop whatever they want by passing actual laws.

What’s your solution? Ban “the left”? Like any supposed libertarian you’re 95% authoritarian and only want free speech for the stuff you agree with.

 

[jamie (not that one)]

I think that because I haven't replied "oh goody, another poll" to any of the last 10 polls Mustafa has posted this week, he thinks he has carte blanche to post poll after poll.

Perhaps someone should post a poll to see what we think his most shit poll was?

Is it a troll account or a bot? I'm struggling to see the point of any of it.

 

[Stato]

Libertarians

Conservatives who smoke, skateboard and have tattoos.

 

[Questions]

Wardrobe

Can I get my suit out please

 

[ozzygull]

Did you get in to the Fire Escape trade eventually?

No, my supper was ready and I missed the opportunity

 

[chickens]

This is one of the undiscussed problems. There's all the excitement about whether a girl who thinks she should have a boy's body should be allowed to be a boy, have boy names, use boys' toilets, etc., but do they ever ask whether it does any good? We could give our children no end of certificates to say they are boys (or any other gender we care to name), but it wouldn't stop the essential fact - their body is still female. If they're unhappy with their body, a certificate surely makes not a blind bit of difference. And if they're not that unhappy with their body so that a change of name is enough, then perhaps their problem was never so serious after all.

I would suggest a parallel with disabled people. If anyone is entitled to feel they are in the wrong body, surely disabled people are. And if we can give them operations or equipment to make them able-bodies, well and good - more than well and good in fact, it would be wonderful. But if all we can give them is a certificate to say they aren't disabled, though they still can't walk or see or whatever, then it's not a ha'porth of good. I would have thought the same is true of transgender children or adults - if they really are trapped in the wrong body, a certificate of change of gender can't really help. (An operation might, but for (I hope) obvious reasons is no use for children. (Castration of boys was abolished centuries ago as barbaric.)

There’s a lot to unpack there, and I would completely agree that if somebody feels 100% trapped in the wrong body, then a certificate is of limited use to them.

However, I would argue that nobody goes directly from having doubts (or even being certain) that they’re in the wrong body directly to surgery.

There are hundreds of reasons for self-doubt and feeling uncomfortable during our formative years. All sorts of anxieties and concerns, it’s a time when we perhaps haven’t learnt to stop comparing ourselves to our peers or built confidence in our own feelings and value judgments. We can also be more easily influenced by whatever is going on around us at the time.

What I would say is that someone is more likely to come to their own, correct for them, conclusion if they’re given the time, space and support to make a decision for themselves, and not in reaction to someone else’s opposition.

I do believe that there will be many (like my daughter) who will wonder if by changing her identity she will reinvent herself, or if some of her feelings and thoughts are as a result of being in the wrong body, and then decide fairly quickly that they’re not. Similarly, there will be those who wish to identify as something other than male/female, but have no intention of going through surgery. Again, if doing this helps the person to feel right in themselves, who is harmed?

Surgery is a huge step, with lifelong considerations, and all the people who decide to fully transition, will be fully aware of both the risks of surgery, and the lifelong aftercare required. It’s not something that anyone would enter into lightly. Again, my argument would be that those who need this, need it. The rest of us really don’t have to worry too much about it.

I understand that for a certain class of politician it is politically useful to have marginalised groups to distract from their political shortcomings, to “other”, and try to keep people angry about, whether that be refugees or the trans community. However, the sheer cynicism of making a small (electorally insignificant) group of people who are mainly (with the exception of a few OTT activists) just trying to find their own way through life a political football is incredibly distasteful to me.

Life is hard even when you’re perfectly comfortable with your birth gender and heterosexual. Gender issues can add an extra layer of confusion and complexity to how a person’s feeling during an important developmental stage. I’d respectfully ask that those who currently indulge in othering something they don’t need or understand, to stop using those who choose to identify as different genders as a political football. It’s really counterproductive, leaves smart individuals feeling shunned and unaccepted by society, and is generally entirely unhelpful.

Apologies if I wandered away from your original points.

 

[nickbrighton]

Isnt it strange that some consider teaching, discussing, debating anything contary to their own views as brainwashing and grooming kids. As an adolescent male -say 10-14- I was just starting to understand that I was atracted to guys and not girls.

There was absoulutley ZERO education about same sex relatonships, let alone gender identity. I sometimmes think had I been made aware of homosexuality, and that it was just part of how the world works and there is nothing wrong withit, how much angst, dispair, bullying etc I would have probably avoided. How many young male teens wouldn't have commited suicide, self harmed, became reclusive and a plethora of other unnecessary ills

The same "brainwashing, agendas, grooming arguments I see on this thread were and are used to stop different sexualities being disscused at schools. Recently there were demonstrations, and boycots of UK Schools because of it

I ,being gay obviously have close friendships with a lot of gay people, they know lots of other gay people that I dont. This is a topic of conversation that comes up quite often, and guess what? Not one single person I know, has or knows any other person who has become gay simply because they were made aware of it. NOT ONE. Why? because learning about it, understanding it doesnt make you it. All it does is provide context and understanding for people who are gay, and for those who arent , gives some clarity about what otyhers may be experiencing

Can anyone on here say that since learning about other sexualities has changed their own?

So why on earth would learning about gender make anyone change theirs. It doesnt. What it does do is inform, and provide reasons for how people are feeling, it gives (hopefuly) understanding to others about things they dont understand. WTF is wrong with that. Your world wont be any different if you call a person by a different pronoun, but you may just change someone elses for the better

Those that say there is a gay or trans agenda are right- the agenda is simply to be treated with respect, not get bullied, not get discriminated against, not be forced to live a lie- how disgusting and subversive is that

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

The people I mentioned have the power to stop whatever they want by passing actual laws.

What’s your solution? Ban “the left”? Like any supposed libertarian you’re 95% authoritarian and only want free speech for the stuff you agree with.

Stop talking crap.

Nobody said to ban anything, you're the only one who brought that word up.

 

[Guinness Boy]

There’s a lot to unpack there, and I would completely agree that if somebody feels 100% trapped in the wrong body, then a certificate is of limited use to them.

However, I would argue that nobody goes directly from having doubts (or even being certain) that they’re in the wrong body directly to surgery.

There are hundreds of reasons for self-doubt and feeling uncomfortable during our formative years. All sorts of anxieties and concerns, it’s a time when we perhaps haven’t learnt to stop comparing ourselves to our peers or built confidence in our own feelings and value judgments. We can also be more easily influenced by whatever is going on around us at the time.

What I would say is that someone is more likely to come to their own, correct for them, conclusion if they’re given the time, space and support to make a decision for themselves, and not in reaction to someone else’s opposition.

I do believe that there will be many (like my daughter) who will wonder if by changing her identity she will reinvent herself, or if some of her feelings and thoughts are as a result of being in the wrong body, and then decide fairly quickly that they’re not. Similarly, there will be those who wish to identify as something other than male/female, but have no intention of going through surgery. Again, if doing this helps the person to feel right in themselves, who is harmed?

Surgery is a huge step, with lifelong considerations, and all the people who decide to fully transition, will be fully aware of both the risks of surgery, and the lifelong aftercare required. It’s not something that anyone would enter into lightly. Again, my argument would be that those who need this, need it. The rest of us really don’t have to worry too much about it.

I understand that for a certain class of politician it is politically useful to have marginalised groups to distract from their political shortcomings, to “other”, and try to keep people angry about, whether that be refugees or the trans community. However, the sheer cynicism of making a small (electorally insignificant) group of people who are mainly (with the exception of a few OTT activists) just trying to find their own way through life a political football is incredibly distasteful to me.

Life is hard even when you’re perfectly comfortable with your birth gender and heterosexual. Gender issues can add an extra layer of confusion and complexity to how a person’s feeling during an important developmental stage. I’d respectfully ask that those who currently indulge in othering something they don’t need or understand, to stop using those who choose to identify as different genders as a political football. It’s really counterproductive, leaves smart individuals feeling shunned and unaccepted by society, and is generally entirely unhelpful.

Apologies if I wandered away from your original points.

Great post