What is it with the tories

[Goldstone Rapper]

Not actually true. PR and preferential systems are different systems.

PR is about matching share of the national vote to the share of the seats.

A preferential voting system is, yes, about marking out preferences. It brings other factors in such as next preferences and which party you definitely wouldn't want in power.

So under PR, if the BNP got 5% of the vote they would get 5% of the seats. Under a preferential system, such as STV, it is likely they would get 0% of the seats as most voters would not mark the BNP candidate amongst their 2nd, 3rd or 4th preferences.

Another way of looking at the difference is that if Lib Dems got 25% of the national vote but were 2nd preference of all Tories and Labour voters, under PR the Lib Dems would get 25% of seats, but probably closer to 50% of seats under STV.

No under PR you get preferential voting which is more democratic so all seats would have more counts an example.


First prefernce - you vote for your chosen canditate
second preference you vote for whoever you would like to win if you first prefernce fails.

count

- if a candatate gets over 50 % of vote at first count the are elected.
- If vote split between two (or more depending on share of vote)the you go to a second count where the canitate with the least votes both first and second prefernce is elimated, and so forth.


It removes the need for tactical votig and is far more democratic, but unfortunatly not great for the tories, as they have very poor % of votes in ahuge amount of consituencies, and even in the ones where they are srtong the liklehood is that many labour second prefernce votes would go to liberals and vica versa therefore they would be lucky to have got maybe 200 seats at the last election.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

Worth having a look at this article. A PR system that can deliver stable government.

politicalbetting.com As PR becomes centre stage - what about this?

I'm really not sure why Labour supporters want a Lib-Lab pact. It won't be stable, will need to give big concessions to the nationalists.

That will surely make them massively unpopular. Unless they can survive for 3+ years and deliver change then they will be punished at the polls and will see themselves out of power whatever the voting system.

 

[simmo]

personally want the liblab coalition to come about, there is so much nasty medicine to be dished out, whoever gets in , would prefer that lib/labs get the blame, the coaltion to fall apart and the tories get elected in about a year with a spanking majority

Absolutely, I think it would be great for a Lib/Lab coalition for the country, it will fall apart in the first 12 months when most of the painful cuts need to be made. The Lib/Lab maths doesn't add up at all, the SNP/Plaid Cymru, the Non Unionist N Ireland MP's all have to be on board and to cap it all of Labour will be seen to be selling it's soul to the Lib Dems to desperately cling on to power and the Lib Dems will be seen selling itself to the highest bidder and of course as others have pointed out the English will be seen to be losing out as it will be presumed that sweeteners will have been give to the Scots/Welsh/NI for their parties to be on board.

Labour itself will also be in turmoil because it is they and their MP's whom have the most to lose if there is a change to the electoral system (just look at how many votes were cast and how many MP's Labour got if you don't believe me), because the present situation is most beneficial to them. If electoral reform is tried to be bulldozed through the house as part of the deal with the Lib Dems by using a 3 line whip, Labour MP's in marginals will effectively have to be voting themselves out of a job next time there is an election!

Then when it all falls apart and the fiasco of the 12 months or so is over and a new election is called the Tories can hopefully alone, lead the country out of the financial shite that Labour has put us in, which is what really matters to the country and not voting reform.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

My advice is enjoy the World Cup Finals , enjoy the Summer, drink lots of beer and wine for the next 3 months and then worry about everything as we are all f***ed.

 

[Napper]

My advice is enjoy the World Cup Finals , enjoy the Summer, drink lots of beer and wine for the next 3 months and then worry about everything as we are all f***ed.

But Cameron isn't in yet ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I actually genuinly believe myself to be more intelligent that cameron, and i am serious which is kind of worrying for any conservatives. Just look at his face that kind of blue blood inbreeding takes centuries to perfect.

So in a single post you make a claim to be more intelligent than someone but then use an insult rather than some intelligent arguement to back up your point .... incredible

So come on, lets see you back your claim up with proof and an intelligent arguement.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

My advice is enjoy the World Cup Finals , enjoy the Summer, drink lots of beer and wine for the next 3 months and then worry about everything as we are all f***ed.

Why are we all f***ed? Seriously, please explain that comment in relation to this otherwise reasonably intelligent thread

 

[jezzer]

Its quite ironic that the tories could end up being stuffed by the very electoral system they`re dying to keep!

 

[Trufflehound]

The coalition government in 1974 did not work.

There was no coalition government in 1974.

The Labour Party ruled as a minority government - which is what people on here are suggesting that the Tories should be allowed to do.

And THAT did not work.

 

[Yabba Dabba Do]

A lib/ lab coalition is clearly democratic and if it offers the way forward for PR then it is the best thing for this country, at this election the breakdown was as follows.

conservative 36 % of vote
Labour 29 %
Liberals 23 %

Looking at that it is clear that lib/lab have a clear mandate to govern, and with Brown Gone it is even clearer as a large part of the tory vote was simply anti brown. The sooner we move to full PR the better as it is ludicrous that any party could have an overall majority with only 40 % of the vote.
Furthermore cameron cant argue he has a clear mandate to govern, it is a staggering edightment of his ability to lead that despite having gone through the worst recession ever, and with a completly uncharasmatic lump of a pm he still cant win a majority, by any right this election should have seen a tory landslide the likes of never seen before. Bring on PR and lets banish stupid undemocratic governments forvever.

Could not have said it better myself - the only answer is to bring on PR and banish stupid undemocratic governments forever.

Join the swelling ranks of the Purple Revolution (PR) whatever your politcal persuasion.

See the Take Back Parliament website for more info and follow on Twitter for latest developments.

 

[drew]

Has anyone else noticed how it is the labour supporters who are most vocal and viciferous about how they should be the rightful new government (even though they didnt get as many votes as the Tories). Whereas the Tory supporters are tending to be somewhat more gracious about it, and allowing the process to be carried out by the MPs and relevent authorities.

What's the matter Labour Boy, scared you are going onto the scrapheap any day now?

You are joking aren't you? From what I have heard on Radio 5, it is all the tory voters that are up in arms because they can see the holy grail of power being snatched away from them. They bleat on about how they won the election without realising that they didn't. The Tories support FPTP system and fell short. Yes they may have got more seats than any other party but it's no good if any bills they try and pass get voted down. It is not workable.

As for being gracious, the announcement by Hague relating to a limited referendum was clutching at straws.


At the end of the day, it was always clear Brown would resign, either now or before any future election. Why some pundits seem surprised by this I don't know.

The way forward will be for the parties that are more closely aligned, ie the Libdems and Labour and one or two others, to form a coalition. Bearing in mind they only need 321 votes as Sinn Fein don't turn up. That would be 1 Green, 1 Alliance Party (the libdem party in Northern Ireland), 3 SDLP and possible Plaid Cymru. They wouldn't even need the SNP.

We then have a referendum on the various electoral reform options, ie PR, PV, FPTP etc and then once the people have decided on the voting system, we have another general election. By that time Labour should have a new leader so if they win no one can moan about an un-elected leader.

I think without Brown, Labour would have had a far better chance of winning the election however, even if they didn't, it would have been closer and they would almost certainly have won enough seats to form a working coalition with the Libdems.

A Lib/Lab pact still needs 15 others to win any contested votes in Parliament. This in the long run is good for the Conservatives, so Clegg whoring his 50 seats around seems to have the Liberal party's interest rather than the Country's interest as his main focus.

Think you need to do your maths. Lib/lab = 315, only 11 short of a majority. Sinn Fein don't turn up and the Tory Speaker of the house doesn't vote. The Tories in effect have only 304 seats.

 

[jezzer]

You are joking aren't you? From what I have heard on Radio 5, it is all the tory voters that are up in arms because they can see the holy grail of power being snatched away from them. They bleat on about how they won the election without realising that they didn't. The Tories support FPTP system and fell short. Yes they may have got more seats than any other party but it's no good if any bills they try and pass get voted down. It is not workable.

As for being gracious, the announcement by Hague relating to a limited referendum was clutching at straws.


At the end of the day, it was always clear Brown would resign, either now or before any future election. Why some pundits seem surprised by this I don't know.

The way forward will be for the parties that are more closely aligned, ie the Libdems and Labour and one or two others, to form a coalition. Bearing in mind they only need 321 votes as Sinn Fein don't turn up. That would be 1 Green, 1 Alliance Party (the libdem party in Northern Ireland), 3 SDLP and possible Plaid Cymru. They wouldn't even need the SNP.

We then have a referendum on the various electoral reform options, ie PR, PV, FPTP etc and then once the people have decided on the voting system, we have another general election. By that time Labour should have a new leader so if they win no one can moan about an un-elected leader.

I think without Brown, Labour would have had a far better chance of winning the election however, even if they didn't, it would have been closer and they would almost certainly have won enough seats to form a working coalition with the Libdems.

Think you need to do your maths. Lib/lab = 315, only 11 short of a majority. Sinn Fein don't turn up and the Tory Speaker of the house doesn't vote. The Tories in effect have only 304 seats.

Brilliant post, best scenario though for the lib lab pact and in reality it would always work out tougher in practice, still here`s hoping.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

I actually genuinly believe myself to be more intelligent that cameron, and i am serious which is kind of worrying for any conservatives. Just look at his face that kind of blue blood inbreeding takes centuries to perfect.

And here lies the root of his persuasion; as a young boy, he once cut his knee and on seeing the red blood proclaimed he had been born and bred as a labour supporter.

Anyone with blue, yellow, green, or any other colour but red, was to be looked down on and insulted with every opportunity.

 

[larus]

You are joking aren't you? From what I have heard on Radio 5, it is all the tory voters that are up in arms because they can see the holy grail of power being snatched away from them. They bleat on about how they won the election without realising that they didn't. The Tories support FPTP system and fell short. Yes they may have got more seats than any other party but it's no good if any bills they try and pass get voted down. It is not workable.

As for being gracious, the announcement by Hague relating to a limited referendum was clutching at straws.


At the end of the day, it was always clear Brown would resign, either now or before any future election. Why some pundits seem surprised by this I don't know.

The way forward will be for the parties that are more closely aligned, ie the Libdems and Labour and one or two others, to form a coalition. Bearing in mind they only need 321 votes as Sinn Fein don't turn up. That would be 1 Green, 1 Alliance Party (the libdem party in Northern Ireland), 3 SDLP and possible Plaid Cymru. They wouldn't even need the SNP.

We then have a referendum on the various electoral reform options, ie PR, PV, FPTP etc and then once the people have decided on the voting system, we have another general election. By that time Labour should have a new leader so if they win no one can moan about an un-elected leader.

I think without Brown, Labour would have had a far better chance of winning the election however, even if they didn't, it would have been closer and they would almost certainly have won enough seats to form a working coalition with the Libdems.



Think you need to do your maths. Lib/lab = 315, only 11 short of a majority. Sinn Fein don't turn up and the Tory Speaker of the house doesn't vote. The Tories in effect have only 304 seats.

Oh dear. You assume that all of the MP's will toe the party line all of the time.

Also, I think you need to do the Math.

There's 650 MP's. The speaker doesn't vote. Sinn Fein don't turn up. Therefore, there's 644 voting MP's in reality.

Of this, Labour have 258, the Lib Dems 57 - Total 315.
Tories are 306 (will be 307 when the by election takes place as it is a very safe seat).

The DUP are 8, and will side with the Tories, giving them 315. If there's a LibLab coalition, it will be rife with in-fighting and won't last long. A majority of MP's doesn't mean a working Majority to get legislation through.

 

[pasty]

So the largest party has no part of the new government...

Theres something quite not right about that. It does not sit well with me.

Summed up perfectly today by cartoonist Matt in the Telegraph

 

[Simster]

The DUP are 8, and will side with the Tories, giving them 315. If there's a LibLab coalition, it will be rife with in-fighting and won't last long. A majority of MP's doesn't mean a working Majority to get legislation through.

Have the DUP said they would follow the Tory whip? The Tories campaigned against them and with the UUP in Northern Ireland, so I can't help thinking this is a little far fetched.

 

[Pantani]

The sad thing about all this, is we needed our politicians to behave like grown ups and put their differences aside. Whichever way the coalitions end up, or even if the Tories form a minority government, they need to work together to pull us out of this recession. They are still fighting along party political lines. The one thing that this election did say is that we do not believe in any of them sufficiently to govern alone, therefore we voted for them to work together for the good of us all.

British politics is so entrenched along political lines that we may never get sensible debate. You only have to go back over the six pages of this thread to see that. The number of people screaming undemocratic, calling people cocks and deriding others viewpoint is an embarrassment to this board and the country as a whole. The same goes for our elected MPs.

 

[simmo]

You are joking aren't you? From what I have heard on Radio 5, it is all the tory voters that are up in arms because they can see the holy grail of power being snatched away from them. They bleat on about how they won the election without realising that they didn't. The Tories support FPTP system and fell short. Yes they may have got more seats than any other party but it's no good if any bills they try and pass get voted down. It is not workable.

As for being gracious, the announcement by Hague relating to a limited referendum was clutching at straws.


At the end of the day, it was always clear Brown would resign, either now or before any future election. Why some pundits seem surprised by this I don't know.

The way forward will be for the parties that are more closely aligned, ie the Libdems and Labour and one or two others, to form a coalition. Bearing in mind they only need 321 votes as Sinn Fein don't turn up. That would be 1 Green, 1 Alliance Party (the libdem party in Northern Ireland), 3 SDLP and possible Plaid Cymru. They wouldn't even need the SNP.

We then have a referendum on the various electoral reform options, ie PR, PV, FPTP etc and then once the people have decided on the voting system, we have another general election. By that time Labour should have a new leader so if they win no one can moan about an un-elected leader.

I think without Brown, Labour would have had a far better chance of winning the election however, even if they didn't, it would have been closer and they would almost certainly have won enough seats to form a working coalition with the Libdems.



Think you need to do your maths. Lib/lab = 315, only 11 short of a majority. Sinn Fein don't turn up and the Tory Speaker of the house doesn't vote. The Tories in effect have only 304 seats.

So the only purpose of your governement would be to change the voting system and call another election. Brilliant, just the sort of stable government this country needs and what the people really want! Nothing cynical going on there is it.

Also by the way the party that would be worst effected by any change to the present FPTP system would be .......Labour. Labour 8M votes 258 seats, Tories 10M votes 306 seats, pretty obvious really.

 

[BLOCK F]

You are joking aren't you? From what I have heard on Radio 5, it is all the tory voters that are up in arms because they can see the holy grail of power being snatched away from them. They bleat on about how they won the election without realising that they didn't. The Tories support FPTP system and fell short. Yes they may have got more seats than any other party but it's no good if any bills they try and pass get voted down. It is not workable.

As for being gracious, the announcement by Hague relating to a limited referendum was clutching at straws.


At the end of the day, it was always clear Brown would resign, either now or before any future election. Why some pundits seem surprised by this I don't know.

The way forward will be for the parties that are more closely aligned, ie the Libdems and Labour and one or two others, to form a coalition. Bearing in mind they only need 321 votes as Sinn Fein don't turn up. That would be 1 Green, 1 Alliance Party (the libdem party in Northern Ireland), 3 SDLP and possible Plaid Cymru. They wouldn't even need the SNP.

We then have a referendum on the various electoral reform options, ie PR, PV, FPTP etc and then once the people have decided on the voting system, we have another general election. By that time Labour should have a new leader so if they win no one can moan about an un-elected leader.

I think without Brown, Labour would have had a far better chance of winning the election however, even if they didn't, it would have been closer and they would almost certainly have won enough seats to form a working coalition with the Libdems.



Think you need to do your maths. Lib/lab = 315, only 11 short of a majority. Sinn Fein don't turn up and the Tory Speaker of the house doesn't vote. The Tories in effect have only 304 seats.

I think Tory voters are entitled to be 'up in arms' for all the reasons that have been done to death.
Whatever happens,it will be very difficult for the ruling party/parties...again for all the reasons we well know.A diificult marriage between Tories and Libdems most probably.An unstable unholy alliance of the'losers'....almost certainly.
As a Tory supporter disappointed that a clear majority was not gained and that a Tory/Libdem agreement may not now be reached,I do feel that another election will not be far away.My prediction....Liberals will be hammered and the Tories will get in with a clear majority.Probably the best outcome at present!
In the meantime ,the Labour leadership contest should provide some good amusement all round!

 

[simmo]

Have the DUP said they would follow the Tory whip? The Tories campaigned against them and with the UUP in Northern Ireland, so I can't help thinking this is a little far fetched.

The DUP voted the same as the Tory party in 90% of the last parliament. The UUP has/had a formal alliance with the Tories but the DUP does not.