We should be negotiating with Iran

[Barrel of Fun]

You would make a damn fine leader by the sounds of things. Screwing up two administrations of the 'enemy' in one fell swoop.

 

[Bry Nylon]

You would make a damn fine leader by the sounds of things.

Ayatollah Nylon

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

for the love of g-d, sully, you couldn't have missed my point more. i'm not some belligerent right-winger seeking to rid the world of muslims. i don't want to BOMB anyone. what i'm saying, if you bothered to take a word in, is that religious doctrine and western liberalism are incompatbile, so it is fruitless to try and get these two perspectives to agree on basic principles.

liberalism is not a 'faith' in the way religion is. it is not just another doctrine advocating that its way is the truth and the light. rather, it is the absence of this proselytisation.

finally, i certainly wouldn't single muslims out as being the only enemies of liberalism. catholics, prothestants and jews are all (as long as they follow the words of their gods precisely) all follow illiberal teachings. my proposal is that the uk does not meddle in the affairs of nations that are built on these tenets and adopt an isolationist position in these cases.

Nope... didn't miss your point at all...... I am a Muslim and have a deep belief in liberalism and the fair rights of others..... in fact I have more of a belief in that than some people who have very strongly-held political ideas (which you call 'not faith'... I beg to differ. What is faith other than a very strong politically held belief turned into a something god-inspired... and yes notice I accept that maybe religions are in fact just political beliefs that have been turned into religions to make them more palatable to the 'peanut crunching crowd').

To make the comments you made does not make you a right wing radical maybe but unaware of all the facts you certainly are otherwise you would know that Islam has been fighting an internal ideological civil war fpor the last fifty years between those who believe religion is personal choice and those who belief it equates with nationalism and race.

Anyway sorry if I offended you.

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

Nope... didn't miss your point at all...... I am a Muslim and have a deep belief in liberalism and the fair rights of others..... in fact I have more of a belief in that than some people who have very strongly-held political ideas (which you call 'not faith'... I beg to differ. What is faith other than a very strong politically held belief turned into a something god-inspired... and yes notice I accept that maybe religions are in fact just political beliefs that have been turned into religions to make them more palatable to the 'peanut crunching crowd').

To make the comments you made does not make you a right wing radical maybe but unaware of all the facts you certainly are otherwise you would know that Islam has been fighting an internal ideological civil war fpor the last fifty years between those who believe religion is personal choice and those who belief it equates with nationalism and race.

Anyway sorry if I offended you.

absolutely not, sully; no offence taken. besides which, it is essential in all discource that all views are questioned - it is the only way we will get to the truth.

if you are yourself a muslim, i may be well out of my depth here and so apologise for my ignnorance. but as i understand it, sharia law is the law allah wants to see put into practice on earth. this is quite starkly contrary to basic principles of liberalism. if you attempt to consociate the two, you merely offer a watered-down version of islam, and so are not a muslim at all.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

absolutely not, sully; no offence taken. besides which, it is essential in all discource that all views are questioned - it is the only way we will get to the truth.

if you are yourself a muslim, i may be well out of my depth here and so apologise for my ignnorance. but as i understand it, sharia law is the law allah wants to see put into practice on earth. this is quite starkly contrary to basic principles of liberalism. if you attempt to consociate the two, you merely offer a watered-down version of islam, and so are not a muslim at all.

No. Sharia is not specifically stated in Koran.... the vast majority of sharia is in Hadith... the collected saying and stories of the prophet and his companions. Liberal Islam hold the hadith as suspicious... there is a whole historical issue here as hadith were chosen and selected three hundred years after the death of Muhammed (pbuh) and no branch of Islam (Hanife, Shafi, Maliki etc) agrees on the exact same hadith.

Yes there are passages in Quran that advocate a sharia ( btw sharia doesn't have any special meaning by the way... it's just a word in Arabic like 'laws' or 'society') but it is not clear what that should be... Arabic is a twisty language and words have many different meanings.. I couldn't even begin to answer your question here on a forum and I am certainly not going to use other people's voices to do it.... so no buba-type links Go and find out for yourself with a clear mind..... the truth is out there

Do I think Allah (swt) wants women stoned? Absolutely not. Do I think that evey non-Muslim should be killed because Allah (swt) wants it so? NO!!!! And I absolutely believe that the Quran does not tell us to do so.

And in your eyes, if that makes you think I am not a Muslim that's up to you.......my thousands of Muslim friends don't agree with you. Please do not paint any human being with faith as a faceless mask.

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

please educate me further...

do you think women should be veiled?

what are the main principles of 'liberal islam'?

 

[tedebear]

Sully - a few really general questions if you don't mind? It really confuses me that a religion seems to advocate a "war" on other people, these beheadings and "jihad" etc.

Here come my general questions (sorry I don't mean to sound daft - I just have very little idea about this all other than what I'm fed by the BBC etc.)

Does the Muslim religion actually teach that this behaviour (the war, jihad etc.) is acceptable? It seems to me that there are many interpretations of the muslim religion (in the same way as Christianity etc.) but isn't there an overriding element of respect for fellow man within your religion?

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Sully - a few really general questions if you don't mind? It really confuses me that a religion seems to advocate a "war" on other people, these beheadings and "jihad" etc.

Here come my general questions (sorry I don't mean to sound daft - I just have very little idea about this all other than what I'm fed by the BBC etc.)

Does the Muslim religion actually teach that this behaviour (the war, jihad etc.) is acceptable? It seems to me that there are many interpretations of the muslim religion (in the same way as Christianity etc.) but isn't there an overriding element of respect for fellow man within your religion?

Good question tedebear... it really depends where you sit on the fence. I was taught that (and this is what I see in the Quran) t respect for fellow human beings is paramount. Also that the only person that can judge another is Allah (swt) so how can I say whether one person is better than another or deserves censure or punishment? However... to try and answer your question I would need to write a book and much of it would be about history...... Islam, like all religions has been twisted by humans for their own ends and many many radicals do what they do because an imam in their mosque (in countries where people who are older than you are more respected by defualt, know better than you - that's the culþture) has brainwashed them into believing it's god's work. Many of these imams have no education outside learning Ýslam from equally uneducated people... and no experience of the outside world.

The best place to read about this... if you can manage it is a book by Reza Aslan called 'No God but God'... he is probably the best commentator, the easiest to read and the most open champion of Islamic liberalýism.

Hope that helps

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

please educate me further...

do you think women should be veiled?

what are the main principles of 'liberal islam'?

Sorry Tesco... didn't see this..... I'm not going to educate you... you find out for yourseþlf... if it works for you then good if it doesn't then that's good too. Your life and opinions are up to you.....

Don't really sound like a missionary do I

Oh and by the way my wife isn't veiled and wears a swimsuit by the beach... however if she chose to wear a veil that would be up to her.... I wouldn't comment either way.

Suggested a book above which is worth a read on Ýslamic liberalism. Then make up your own mind

 

[tedebear]

Yeah thanks Sully, that does help and I think I was along the right lines anyhow, but we get fed so much about the extremist minority groups within Islam that it becomes hard to believe there are any decent people muslim people left (or I'm sure thats what the Sun would like its readers would think)...

That book might be worth a read thanks for the suggestion!

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

You're welcome tedebear....

there are a few nice ones out there... in fact two Albion supporters too! We can't be all that bad

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

i can't imagine any tolerant person having a problem with the religion it sounds like you practise, sully.

i do feel genuinely sorry for more open-minded muslims who are tarred with the same brush as the nutters. ultimately, it sounds like they're their own worst enemies.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Absolutely spot on Tesco... as I said there is a thelogical civil war at the moment which the liberals are losing... this is mainly because it is the radicals who dominate the media... and this is not helped by the behaviour of the media and governments who seem unwilling to seek the liberals out.

But isn't that always the way with liberalism... we're too damn boring

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

the tragedy of it all seems to be the escalating loop it has created.

fundamentalists grab the headlines >> anti-muslim sentiment increases >> more moderate muslims feel stronger exclusion >> sympathy toward extremism from within liberal muslim communities grows >> fundamentalist numbers and activity increases

and round we go

 

[goldstone]

A question for Sully.

Did you come upon Islam of your own accord or were you indoctrinated into it as a child?

The indoctrination of chilren into the religion followed by their parents is a crime. Each person should make up his/her own mind when old enough whether to follow one particular religion or none.

 

[tedebear]

A question for Sully.

Did you come upon Islam of your own accord or were you indoctrinated into it as a child?

The indoctrination of chilren into the religion followed by their parents is a crime. Each person should make up his/her own mind when old enough whether to follow one particular religion or none.

Blimey - thats a hardline approach? What is religion? I was born into a basketball playing family, my father coached at Australian Junior level, and is Coach at a very well known NBA feeder camp in Oregon, my Mum has always been registrar and championship manager at the local Basketball stadium, I was good at it before I realized that I had a choice whether to play or not... was I indoctrinated? Yes of course I was. Where's the crime though?

 

[goldstone]

Blimey - thats a hardline approach? What is religion? I was born into a basketball playing family, my father coached at Australian Junior level, and is Coach at a very well known NBA feeder camp in Oregon, my Mum has always been registrar and championship manager at the local Basketball stadium, I was good at it before I realized that I had a choice whether to play or not... was I indoctrinated? Yes of course I was. Where's the crime though?

I would hazard a guess that you were also aware of other sports, probably even played some of them, before you decided to follow your parents into basketball.

Are children indoctrinated into a religion given the opportunity to find out about other religions before making a choice? No.

 

[Tesco in Disguise]

The indoctrination of chilren into the religion followed by their parents is a crime. Each person should make up his/her own mind when old enough whether to follow one particular religion or none.

trouble is, if parents didn't indoctrinate their children, religion would be wiped out in a generation.

 

[goldstone]

trouble is, if parents didn't indoctrinate their children, religion would be wiped out in a generation.

Now there's an idea. Best thing for the planet and for peace in our time ... or at least the next generation's time.

 

[tedebear]

I would hazard a guess that you were also aware of other sports, probably even played some of them, before you decided to follow your parents into basketball.

Are children indoctrinated into a religion given the opportunity to find out about other religions before making a choice? No.

Ahh no I started playing a basketball at age 4...so I didn't decide, it was decided for me...

I think its far wiser to ensure parents teach their children respect, its a dying trait these days. Respect for others, their opinions, and their property....that itself would solve alot of problems...sadly most parents teach their kids to be selfish