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[Football] Victory Over Germany- The Sword of Damocles For Southgate



Hugo Rune

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 23, 2012
23,379
Brighton
Not getting carried away with this one result. We at best look pedestrian, and without two world class saves and Mueller’s miss would have been a different story. It’s a functional team which got a result yesterday. I’m not convinced by Southgate at all. Too frightened by his own shadow. This was also the worse Germany team in living memory.

It’s an interesting performance.

If Brighton had played like that (and not got the result) the Potter out campaign would have quadrupled in size as it’s leaders set up multiple negative threads.

But, I noticed that despite picking 5 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders, the team held it’s territory and didn’t drop deep too much. They held their ground in the middle of the park. Germany were petrified of our attacking 3 and rarely tried to overload us. Despite giving the ball away in one game the amount of times Brighton would do in a dozen games, I can see the thinking. We stay firm and wait for the other team to make a move, eventually the class of Sterling or Kane or Grealish will tell.

The problem is, bad luck. We had none last night but normally things go very wrong for England. Southgate is a lucky manager, it’s normally someone like John Stones making a horrific error that leads to his downfall. My worry is that if we do make a mistake (like Sterling giving the ball away and Muller almost scoring) we’ll have no way to get back into a game.

In short, if we don’t score first and our opponents do, I think we might be ****ed if the opposition sit back in a deep block. However, Gareth’s way is the only way for me. I’ve seen us outplay Germany with brilliant players and lose because they get the luck, he has reversed that trend amazingly. We are now the turgid team who’ll always get the result and hopefully, win the trophy.
 




nwgull

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2003
14,367
Manchester
There was no luck in yesterday's win. It was down to superior tactics and skill.

Not a vintage German side, but certainly not the wurst.
 


el punal

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2012
12,298
The dull part of the south coast
i think the Southgate haters need to grow up a bit, i dont understand why they do tbh. beaten the Germans in tournament, we've not conceded, somehow thats not good enough? :shrug:

It’s the nature of the beast. Every England manager since (and including) Alf Ramsey has been pilloried for whatever reason be it tactics, team selection, style of play, coaching. Certain newspapers are mainly responsible for the vilification which then influences the many misguided fans who believe that crap. The bottom line is simple - win and everyone is happy even if they are turgid 1-0 victories. If you lose then do it gloriously - go down fighting with everything against you. It’s the English way and you’ll be forgiven.
 


zefarelly

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
22,499
Sussex, by the sea
It's a sign of how well Potter has our defence playing that I wince when I see Englands defenders passing it around, they look like an accident in the making by comparison
 


grubbyhands

Well-known member
Dec 8, 2011
2,292
Godalming
It’s the nature of the beast. Every England manager since (and including) Alf Ramsey has been pilloried for whatever reason be it tactics, team selection, style of play, coaching. Certain newspapers are mainly responsible for the vilification which then influences the many misguided fans who believe that crap. The bottom line is simple - win and everyone is happy even if they are turgid 1-0 victories. If you lose then do it gloriously - go down fighting with everything against you. It’s the English way and you’ll be forgiven.

Let us never forget he was Palace Scum! However, he's doing a great job so far. I feel confused writing those 2 sentences.
 




dazzer6666

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Mar 27, 2013
54,782
Burgess Hill
Southgate deserves credit for discovering a formula that works and sticking to it no matter how much the football romantic in me would like him to change it up. Same again Saturday please Gareth.

Agree with this. Adjusting my views on him anyway.

As for anyone suggesting we now ‘have’ to progress to the final for him to get any credit, that’s nonsense. There aren’t any easy games and better teams than us are already gone.

Way too much hype and celebrating after last night though in the media. A long awaited good win with a professional performance but keep a bit of a lid on it until we’ve won something.
 


el punal

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2012
12,298
The dull part of the south coast
Let us never forget he was Palace Scum! However, he's doing a great job so far. I feel confused writing those 2 sentences.

Deep breaths, dear boy, deep breaths! Don’t forget the Albion had a few who were involved with Palace - our Glenda, Neil Smillie, Gary O’Reilly, Garry Williams - even Mullers was manager there for a bit but wonderfully despised by the Palace fans. :D
 


golddene

Well-known member
Jul 28, 2012
1,990
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we only beaten the worst German team in living memory (and my living memory goes back to 66)?

I'm not getting excited by all this praise of Southgate.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the win as much as anyone but let's not get carried away. As in 2018, the draw has been exceptionally kind to Southgate. One side has Belgium, Italy and Spain (no disrespect to the Swiss either), and our side Ukraine, Czechs and Denmark!

all because the more fancied teams in our side of the draw have been eliminated, could have been Wales, Holland, France and Germany
 




nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
18,198
Gods country fortnightly
Southgate took over when we were at our lowest ebb after crashing out to Iceland at Euro2016, that was humiliation

We now have achieved our greatest victory in a knockout game since 1966. Could this finally be our time?
 


Deano's Right Foot

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
3,913
Barcombe
The one thing Southgate has done is make a lot of fans enjoy watching England again by being bold in selection and having attacking teams, it has been ages since I have actually enjoyed watching us play again till he took over.

Whether he has the tactical nous to take us all the way remains to be seen, tactically last night excellent but step back to the Scotland game totally outwitted .

The other thing I like about Southgate, despite his pedigree, is that he is a new style manager prepared to take on board all aspects of management techniques, personally I wish him well and hope that come the next honours list he receives recognition for a job well done.

Attacking teams? Organised, decent game plan, confident yes but I would disagree with attacking.
 


Eric Youngs Contact Lens

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
595
East Sussex
I am not "waiting to be impressed" before enjoying the journey. We just got a huge result. Our performance was edgy and of course the fine margins we as BHA fans know and love make the difference. They will on Saturday too - if they go our way, we will win, if not....Whatever about our attacking intent or embarrassment of attacking riches, we all know that the best attacking teams often don't win the tournaments and GS knows that. He also knows that our weakest area is our defence, so he has been very pragmatic to put numbers in to minimise that and not expose it too much. Teams that can do this, then attack and score in the increasingly rare moments will do well.
I too don't think he has got everything right in terms of squad selection, but he has planned for winning on the small margins so far and shown some flex in his formations to do that. I am also willing to agree with the media opinions on the togetherness of the squad - credit where credit is due. Losing to Ukraine on Saturday will not be a surprise if we don't score 1st. Breaking down teams that sit deep is really hard to do. He will be adamant that we mustn't concede 1st, and will set up accordingly. Thats ok with me.. but I don't subscribe to the arguments that he has created a rod for his own back. Credit for a pragmatic job done so far. Ukraine will be a tough watch unless we score 1st and even then, until Ukraine come out to try and win it or get on level terms it will be dour/slow I suspect. That wont be GS fault , that will be the realities of playing against teams sitting deep. That said we have players who can create moments in most games.. get one early and we will cruise to the semi-final.. and I will love it!
 




nwgull

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2003
14,367
Manchester
all because the more fancied teams in our side of the draw have been eliminated, could have been Wales, Holland, France and Germany

Wales were never one of the more fancied teams in this side of the draw, and Denmark were clearly superior.
 


golddene

Well-known member
Jul 28, 2012
1,990
Wales were never one of the more fancied teams in this side of the draw, and Denmark were clearly superior.

I quite agree but it seemed churlish to name the more fancied sides that had been eliminated and not include Wales !!!!
 


Brovion

In my defence, I was left unsupervised.
NSC Patron
Jul 6, 2003
19,688
The Spain game wasn't our first game in the qualifying, there was a group stage before that. The 8 group winners qualified for the QFs. We won our group against Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, although the group games also doubled up as the 1966-67 and 1967-68 Home Championships.

Yes, I remember it well. I also remember, after the four-team Finals in Italy, all the hurruphing and soul-searching that went on as people wondered why in two years we'd slumped from being world champions to being 'only' third in Europe. If only they knew what was to come in the next fifty-odd years!

Yugoslavia (who beat us in the semi-final / first knockout game) were, in typical English fashion, underestimated, as they'd already knocked out West Germany in the Group stage. (A group that only had three teams!). England's one defeat in qualifying was the 3-2 home defeat against Scotland in 1967, which Scots always claim as an unofficial World Cup win.
 




Poojah

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2010
1,881
Leeds
We have a funny mentality in this country in that we seem reluctant to give ourselves credit where it's due, almost preferring the narrative where things go spectacularly wrong as that's the state we've become conditioned to and comfortable with. We're somewhat self-deprecating as a nation, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but sometimes it's important to take off our grey tinted glasses and see things for what they are.

That doesn't mean getting carried away - yesterday's game wasn't 90 minutes of scintillating, total football but it certainly wasn't as bad as many are making out. In fact it wasn't 'bad' at all; far from it.

The worst Germany team of all time? Their team is littered with honours - Thomas Müller is the most decorated Germany player of all time. In their starting 11 yesterday were (from a quick count) 4 World Cup winners, 9 Champions League winners and no end of domestic title wins. Not the best German team of all time perhaps, but they shouldn't be written off just because we beat them convincingly.

We are in the last 8 of the competition having not conceded a goal. Apparently we had an easy group, yet Czech Republic just knocked out the Netherlands whilst Croatia put three past Spain and took them into extra time. The Scotland game was turgid, but that was of the Jocks' design and they deserve credit - let's not exclusively ruminate on our own faults.

There seems to be a criticism levelled at the fact that we have all this attacking talent and yet are setting up defensively. But isn't there a counter argument there? If you have a wealth of attacking talent, doesn't that allow you to defend more resolutely? Shore up at the back, and let your world class attackers do their thing when the inevitable moments arrive. The Kevin Keegan approach of "we're gonna score one more than you" was often exciting to watch, but it didn't ultimately win him any trophies. It hasn't won the tournament favourites anything this time around.

I'd also argue that we're nowhere near as defensive as people are suggesting. Yes, on the surface we lined up with five defenders and two defensive midfielders on the pitch, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Watch the goals back and look at where Luke Shaw is in both instances - in those moments he is not playing defensively.

Southgate also deservers credit for managing the mental aspect. The England shirt has worn heavy on some great players in recent years, no less than when we've faced penalties and / or the Germans. We now have clear evidence that this set of players are free of those shackles. Ukraine poses a polar challenge. Having overcome a long-standing inferiority complex with Germany, we now need to ensure that we don't underestimate an opponent which on paper we should beat comfortably. Honestly, I trust Gareth Southgate 100% to see to that.

He's also got the media on-side. Perhaps they're getting carried away, but very, very few England sides have had the media behind them, quite the opposite, only adding to the weight of those three lions. That is an achievement in itself.

This England team may not be remembered in the hall of fame of great international sides, but in the here and now we have a realistic chance of winning a major tournament for the first time in my lifetime. I just wish more of us could enjoy the moment - we have a diligent, technically gifted team which is strong at the back and capable of hurting teams when it matters. Whether that's enough for us to lift the trophy only time will tell, but let's not underestimate ourselves - we are a bloody good side doing well. No less.
 


Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
Indeed, he has done an excellent job and even if we fall at the next hurdle, fans will remember last night for a long time. Not been a fan but he is proving me wrong.

Dunno.. think if you lose that Ukraine game, this victory will be VERY quickly forgotten...
 




Brovion

In my defence, I was left unsupervised.
NSC Patron
Jul 6, 2003
19,688
Dunno.. think if you lose that Ukraine game, this victory will be VERY quickly forgotten...
Hmmm. Not so sure. It's a bit like Scotland beating (or drawing) with England. The Scots may not win anything, but getting a result against the team they consider to be their biggest and bitterest rivals counts for a lot and sweetens the pain of the inevitable tournament exit.

For Scotland v England read England v Germany. Like we don't care about Scotland (other than not wanting to lose obviously) the Germans don't really consider us rivals (for them 'rivals' are the teams that challenge them for trophies), but for us .... well rightly or wrongly it means a lot to beat them.

So if Ukraine 'do an Iceland' on us, which is extremely possible, the German victory will still be there - and it's a big monkey off our backs.
 




Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo

I believe in Joe Hendry
Oct 4, 2003
11,822
England's one defeat in qualifying was the 3-2 home defeat against Scotland in 1967, which Scots always claim as an unofficial World Cup win.

To be fair to the Scots that win did mean they became the Unofficial World Champions if you follow https://www.ufwc.co.uk/ which tracks the title as though it was defending in the same way as a boxing title, dating back to the first recognised international game in 1872. Disappointingly England haven't held it since 2000, although Italy are the current Champions so both the European Champions and the Unofficial World Champions will be crowned in the Euro 2020 final.
 


Icy Gull

Back on the rollercoaster
Jul 5, 2003
72,015
Dunno.. think if you lose that Ukraine game, this victory will be VERY quickly forgotten...

Won't happen, you have no idea how much angst our tournament record against Germany carried. Unless we win the whole thing, we watched our Cup Final last night
 


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