[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Machiavelli]

(Shhhhh! But....I don't really trust the electorate, and have considered the possibility of advocating that the country be run by a committee of Wise People. Except that they would soon turn into dicks. Sorry, dictators. So I can live with the 'let them have a go then chuck them out after a few years if they start getting too cocky/lazy/useless' system).

Too much transparency and accountability simply leads to litigation. Never shine daylight on magic. Or, on trickery, anyway....

And....we always get the governments we deserve.

At least on NSC you can put the dick heads on ignore.

We NEVER get what 'we' vote for because there's no we.
In 2010, I was utterly, utterly delighted that there was an MP that I could really support and get behind. Not only that but she was the MP for my constituency.
But of those that turned out in my constituency, about 35% voted for her, about 32% for Labour, and about 20% for the Tories, and the rest for the others. In that only 35% got what they wanted, whereas 65% didn't.
FPTP is there to disapoint and disillusion the majority. Put differently it pisses off any 'we'

 

[Wokeworrier]

Many pro-Remain MPs and other prominent public supporters, along with ordinary supporters on social media (including myself), have been subject to regular death threats and threats of violence or arson, some female 'Remain' Conservative MPs had to seek police protection or injunctions against aggressive Brexit supporters threatening them in public, and the Labour MP, Jo Cox, was murdered by a Right-wing racist thug.

Please tell me roughly how many Brexit supporters have been assassinated, suffered death threats, assaulted or otherwise threatened by aggressive or violent Remain supporters.

Your engaging in the usual Right-wing tactic of implying that "both sides area as bad as each other", when it is clear that since 2016, Brexit supporters have been the overwhelming perpetrators of bullying, intimidation, and threats against Remainers.

That is one of the reasons I hate Brexit - not just the policy itself, but because so many Brexit supporters are plain nasty, thuggish, people - the 'school of hard knocks, university of life, wear your poppy with pride' brigade. I've been 'engaging' with them on social media since 2016, and they cannot (or will not) discuss issues in an intelligent or grown-up manner, but - in block capital letters - hurl abuse, insults, and threats, with 100s of their mates joining in, like vicious animals hunting in packs. They also send vile and threatening messages and threats via Messenger; - "We know where you and your wife live, c***" being a regular one.

If you were to try discussing Brexit with them face-to-face in a pub, many Brexiters would happily punch you in the face to silence you. But, yeah "Remain supporters are as bad"

As far as I know there is only one example of someone being threatened, assaulted, then killed with a direct, clear link to Brexit and the victim wasn't a remainer ...

https://www.independent.co.uk/

I doubt the vast majority of Brexit voters would be punching anyone down the pub as no #fbpe snowflake would ever turn up to repeat the patronising bigoted drivel they post online ...

 

[rogersix]

The attitudes towards people who support Brexit wasn't and isn't particularly tolerant. Yes, tolerant in the sense that you allow people to talk about it and to disagree, but not tolerant in the sense of being polite and respecting their opinion.

This is not directed at you personally, it's a comment on the general board ethos.

could you tell us of any brexit benefits? or maybe something in the pipieline?

there's a reason for that; could politeness include validity, in your opinion?

 

[Stumpy Tim]

As far as I know there is only one example of someone being threatened, assaulted, then killed with a direct, clear link to Brexit and the victim wasn't a remainer ...

https://www.independent.co.uk/

I doubt the vast majority of Brexit voters would be punching anyone down the pub as no #fbpe snowflake would ever turn up to repeat the patronising bigoted drivel they post online ...

While horrible, that clearly says his death wasn't anything to do with the fight.

 

[rogersix]

So right in front of our eyes the government is attempting a cover upIncredible. This kind of corruption is something we in our arrogant way would normally associate
only with other countries.

ham and cheese?

 

[Randy McNob]

could you tell us of any brexit benefits? or maybe something in the pipieline?

there's a reason for that; could politeness include validity, in your opinion?

Brexit Thread pages: 63,000
Brexit Benefits: 0

 

[Randy McNob]

As far as I know there is only one example of someone being threatened, assaulted, then killed with a direct, clear link to Brexit and the victim wasn't a remainer ...

https://www.independent.co.uk/

I doubt the vast majority of Brexit voters would be punching anyone down the pub as no #fbpe snowflake would ever turn up to repeat the patronising bigoted drivel they post online ...

Incredible - not the brawl but you. Still buying into the squabbling, the remain / leave divide, still living in 2016 (but telling people they should move on). It's the only way Brexit works (in a stupidly ironic way) with the country divided, people fighting and hating eachother, you even post an article where it got so heated a person was murdered. As if after all that it still matters which side you're on? And yet still basking in the notion this whole project was a brilliant idea. F+&% Me......

 

[wellquickwoody]

It's a shame because Peter Kyle is a good MP.

Peter Kyle is/was a very good MP, from an ex constituent of his and previous Tory voter. Unfortunately he seems to have become tainted by over exaggeration, bullshit and condemnation whilst not actually stating what his party would do given the same circumstances. Same as most political commentators of many persuasions, be it high level or you.

 

[wellquickwoody]

View attachment 161721
Do you really think that voting liberal will take us back into the EU? Think again. I am a strong 'remainer' but even I consider that this bird has flown, at least for the next several years. Probably more than 10. Any whisper of 'betraying' the Brexit vote will result in a tory government. Like it or not.

Awful lot of truth there, from a Tory Remainer.

But that is what is wrong with nearly all of politics. Tell people what is least damaging to your own interests rather than the truth.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

We NEVER get what 'we' vote for because there's no we.
In 2010, I was utterly, utterly delighted that there was an MP that I could really support and get behind. Not only that but she was the MP for my constituency.
But of those that turned out in my constituency, about 35% voted for her, about 32% for Labour, and about 20% for the Tories, and the rest for the others. In that only 35% got what they wanted, whereas 65% didn't.
FPTP is there to disapoint and disillusion the majority. Put differently it pisses off any 'we'

Whereas with PR 'we' all get what we want?

I don't see how.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Whereas with PR 'we' all get what we want?

I don't see how.

Of course not everyone H, but a lot more than the 29% of the electorate that currently have any representation in Government

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Of course not everyone H, but a lot more than the 29% of the electorate that currently have any representation in Government

Not if those who currently don't bother to vote continue to not bother to vote. That's the main reason why only 29% of the electorate voted for the tories. Low turnout.

As a labour supporter living in a tory constituency I am not going to be any happier seeing tories returned here by PR instead of FPTP.

Or you can invent some system that means that my constituency returns 10 MPs in proportion to the vote and two of them are now labour, but I would still not be happy.

Sorry but I just can't fathom how a change in system will result in anything other than converting a working majority into a hung parliament.

Sorry to be a bore but we have FPTP, and none of the major parties or anyone else other than the chattering classes are mooting anything else. I don't see this changing anytime, despite the howls of protest from greens and liberals who know they will never be able to form a majority government.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Whereas with PR 'we' all get what we want?

I don't see how.

Now that I've sobered up (briefly), I'd like to point out that in the 2-3years I've been on this forum, I've seen you have this exact argument about FPTP/PR/STV about 4 or 5 times.
Each time, after vehemently objecting to PR on a range of principles, you eventually agree that STV doesn't sound too bad.
And then 6months or so later the subject comes up again and the argument starts from the beginning again.
I don't have any objection to this, I just wonder if it's something you're aware of yourself?

 

[Machiavelli]

Whereas with PR 'we' all get what we want?

I don't see how.

Without wanting to suggest an age differential -- actually, scrap that -- the 'big two' worked in the middle of the last century: in 1951, 96% of the 84% that voted, voted for the Tories or Labour. Now, between them, they're lucky to get 2/3 of those that do vote (and that's much lower than back then -- ask yourself why). In short, we are a much more plural nation, which is replicated elsewhere in the world, and an electoral process that recognised that plurality might be a very small step towards sorting out the almighty mess that this declining nation is in.
More of the fractured/plural 'we' will get what they want under PR.

 

[Machiavelli]

Not if those who currently don't bother to vote continue to not bother to vote. That's the main reason why only 29% of the electorate voted for the tories. Low turnout.

As a labour supporter living in a tory constituency I am not going to be any happier seeing tories returned here by PR instead of FPTP.

Or you can invent some system that means that my constituency returns 10 MPs in proportion to the vote and two of them are now labour, but I would still not be happy.

Sorry but I just can't fathom how a change in system will result in anything other than converting a working majority into a hung parliament.

Sorry to be a bore but we have FPTP, and none of the major parties or anyone else other than the chattering classes are mooting anything else. I don't see this changing anytime, despite the howls of protest from greens and liberals who know they will never be able to form a majority government.

You might be disappointed to hear that there is momentum within Labour for PR. See, for instance, the Labour mayor of Manchester.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Not if those who currently don't bother to vote continue to not bother to vote. That's the main reason why only 29% of the electorate voted for the tories. Low turnout.

As a labour supporter living in a tory constituency I am not going to be any happier seeing tories returned here by PR instead of FPTP.

Or you can invent some system that means that my constituency returns 10 MPs in proportion to the vote and two of them are now labour, but I would still not be happy.

Sorry but I just can't fathom how a change in system will result in anything other than converting a working majority into a hung parliament.

Sorry to be a bore but we have FPTP, and none of the major parties or anyone else other than the chattering classes are mooting anything else. I don't see this changing anytime, despite the howls of protest from greens and liberals who know they will never be able to form a majority government.

Without even considering the reasons people don't vote, take out the low turnout completely and the majority who voted still have no representation in Government

It's not just Greens and Liberals that think it is wrong H. Without FPTP, significant numbers of traditional Labour and Conservative voters wouldn't be suffering the most extreme, unrepresentative Government that most have ever seen in their lifetime

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

It's not just Greens and Liberals that think it is wrong H. Without FPTP, significant numbers of traditional Labour and Conservative voters wouldn't be suffering the most extreme, unrepresentative Government that most have ever seen in their lifetime

The last Labour conference backed PR.
And recent polling suggests many Labour voters are quite comfortable with the idea of some sort of coalition/arrangement with the Lib Dems after the next election, if it comes to it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Now that I've sobered up (briefly), I'd like to point out that in the 2-3years I've been on this forum, I've seen you have this exact argument about FPTP/PR/STV about 4 or 5 times.
Each time, after vehemently objecting to PR on a range of principles, you eventually agree that STV doesn't sound too bad.
And then 6months or so later the subject comes up again and the argument starts from the beginning again.
I don't have any objection to this, I just wonder if it's something you're aware of yourself?

Yes I am entirely aware of this. I am sympathetic to nice people (greens and Liberals may be a bit gauche but they seem to be nice) getting what they want. It does seem a bit miserable knowing the best you can hope for is some awkward coalition with the tories (the liberals) or labour (the greens). And sometimes I think that if everything could be completely different, and we could be like the Germans, happy with a technocrat government that nods to the church but doesn't engage with anything populist (like 'protecting' our borders and f***ing Brexit) then why not try out PR? Let's see what happens, and all that. Maybe Brits would become a bit nicer if they didn't see every election as a death race, where the winner stamps gleefully on the faces of the vanquished oppositions. Maybe.

But then I look at parliament, the f***ing awful shower in charge, and consider how weaselly they were last time they were in a coalition government. And then I look at the liberals and the greens, with their micro obsessions with nonsense such as legalizing cannabis and objecting to appalling developments such as the Amex stadium, and their general cluelessness and I think. . . . why? Why the f*** would I want to see Labour in a coalition with these goons? Would I feel that it would be more fair to my lovely neighbour who objects to every modern advance because it may inconvenience a starling? The neighbour who thought it would be a good idea to plant stinging nettles in her garden?

I don't know. Maybe we would all become nicer and more tolerant. Maybe the government would stop directing public funds into the swiss bank accounts of their cronies, gleefully ransacking public resources for their own enrichment. Swanning about like little princelings, abusing junior staff and breaking all the rules they set for the rest of us.

Maybe. Yeah, in moments of despair I may reach for PR. However I'd rather encourage people to vote strategically to get the current shower out. I don't want a coalition.

I also remind myself that if we change the political system to benefit the nice people, the nice liberals and greens, this will equally benefit the horrible little shits. The Britain First fuckers or whatever they morph themselves into. Farrage would have a seat in parliament and the oxygen of publicity would fill his shitty lungs.

Look, I'd like to support PR because it seems so fair. But I can't.

See you in 6 months for another hand-wrininging episode of should I, shouldn't I?

 

[Is it PotG?]

The last Labour conference backed PR.
And recent polling suggests many Labour voters are quite comfortable with the idea of some sort of coalition/arrangement with the Lib Dems after the next election, if it comes to it.

That's something to look forward to, the Momentum brigade and the Lib Dems both wanting to offer their 50p's worth.


Can't wait.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yes I am entirely aware of this. I am sympathetic to nice people (greens and Liberals may be a bit gauche but they seem to be nice) getting what they want. It does seem a bit miserable knowing the best you can hope for is some awkward coalition with the tories (the liberals) or labour (the greens). And sometimes I think that if everything could be completely different, and we could be like the Germans, happy with a technocrat government that nods to the church but doesn't engage with anything populist (like 'protecting' our borders and f***ing Brexit) then why not try out PR? Let's see what happens, and all that. Maybe Brits would become a bit nicer if they didn't see every election as a death race, where the winner stamps gleefully on the faces of the vanquished oppositions. Maybe.

But then I look at parliament, the f***ing awful shower in charge, and consider how weaselly they were last time they were in a coalition government. And then I look at the liberals and the greens, with their micro obsessions with nonsense such as legalizing cannabis and objecting to appalling developments such as the Amex stadium, and their general cluelessness and I think. . . . why? Why the f*** would I want to see Labour in a coalition with these goons? Would I feel that it would be more fair to my lovely neighbour who objects to every modern advance because it may inconvenience a starling? The neighbour who thought it would be a good idea to plant stinging nettles in her garden?

I don't know. Maybe we would all become nicer and more tolerant. Maybe the government would stop directing public funds into the swiss bank accounts of their cronies, gleefully ransacking public resources for their own enrichment. Swanning about like little princelings, abusing junior staff and breaking all the rules they set for the rest of us.

Maybe. Yeah, in moments of despair I may reach for PR. However I'd rather encourage people to vote strategically to get the current shower out. I don't want a coalition.

I also remind myself that if we change the political system to benefit the nice people, the nice liberals and greens, this will equally benefit the horrible little shits. The Britain First fuckers or whatever they morph themselves into. Farrage would have a seat in parliament and the oxygen of publicity would fill his shitty lungs.

Look, I'd like to support PR because it seems so fair. But I can't.

See you in 6 months for another hand-wrininging episode of should I, shouldn't I?

There's a definite softening of your perspective in there somewhere