[Football] To all the Southgate haters / wrong again and again and again **SOUTHGATE NOW RESIGNED**

[Publius Ovidius]

Foden was inches away from two great goals vs Netherlands in case you've forgotten...

Inches sminches

at the end of the day it’s all about goals scored.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Also didn’t we lose 4-0 to Hungary so we are now in the rubbish teams section of the nations league?

 

[Iggle Piggle]

I sort of understand why we went 4 at the back. Spain's threat was on the wing and I guess the plan was to counter that. I not sure the pound land Christmas tree formation did that though.

 

[Originunknown]

Also didn’t we lose 4-0 to Hungary so we are now in the rubbish teams section of the nations league?

Yes

 

[Brovion]

You hadn't heard of the Euros until 1996? Really?

As to inventing the game, we all know that people have kicked round things about since the cavemen, but the facts are that we did codify the game and export it, so we did invent it just as the Scots lay claim to golf and the French have a claim to modern day tennis.

I ain't letting that claim go, and why should we. Let's celebrate the half-decent things we've done.

But you're right, we wasted most of the thirties being aloof and most of the seventies being woefully out of touch.

In fairness he's probably blanked it out as we were generally shocking - if we qualified. In 1988, which I think was the last time the Euros were in Germany, we lost all three group games under the clueless Bobby Robson. (Who is usually above criticism for getting us to the 1990 WC semi-final).

 

[Hamilton]

I'm not saying I think we invented the game. I'm saying that's part of the entitled narrative of others that helped condone the uselessness of the FA, rather than fuel a clamour for change. I recall at one time the trope was that England would never win anything because the officials are all biased against us. Episodes such as 'the hand of god' fuelled that. The idea that we should be doing better and that there may be something suboptimal in English football didn't trigger the start of any sort of change till after 98.

I genuinely did not know anything about the Euros till 96. I seem to recall we were beaten by Denmark in 92 but I wasn't watching. I had other pressing issues. Before that, it is all a mystery.

I agree that this ‘entitlement’ did exist but now I think it’s a narrative that we are carrying about like a millstone around out necks.

I don’t feel entitled to win anything, but my expectations are high and I think they should be. RDZ reinforced that. It’s okay to set high standards and expect more. It’s not okay to be disrespectful.

I expect England to win something and failure to do so is just that, failure.

But I agree with your opening point and the point you make about triggering change. The danger is that the FA fail to see the triggers now.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I keep hearing the point stated as if it is fact that "Southgate's results have been much better than his predecessors and therefore he is the second best coach ever after Sir Alf."

People need to bear in mind that 20-odd years ago under Sir Trevor Brooking the FA undertook a root and branch reform of English football, including St George's Park as the England National Football Centre and the young player development programme.

The seeds that were sown began to bear fruit when our development teams started to reach finals and then started winning major tournaments, thus bringing a winning tournament mentality to the full England squad.

I would argue Southgate has had better, tournament-savvy players coming through regularly - a huge advantage that his predecessors didn't have. Therefore, I believe the benchmark against which his achievements should be measured should be higher than his predecessors. Arguably it should be based on what our U17, U18, U19, U21 teams have achieved.

Back in 2017 England beat Spain 5-2 in the U17 World Cup Final. Our team contained Mark Guehi, Phil Foden, Conor Gallagher, Emile Smith Rowe, Hudson Odoi and Gibbs-White.

Our U19 squad won the Euros in 2022, our U21S won the Euros in 2023. Last year's winning side contained Branthwaite, Colwill, Palmer, Gordon and our own Carl Rushworth.

In broader terms I think we need to upgrade the minimum success benchmark from quarter-final to semi-final, but when you have home advantage or a favourable draw that gets revised upwards again.

And in the same way that Tony Bloom axed Hughton in pursuit of more attractive football I think the FA are entitled to apply the same criteria to England.

 

[Triggaaar]

Has Randy McMuppet come back yet?

 

[HeaviestTed]

I keep hearing the point stated as if it is fact that "Southgate's results have been much better than his predecessors and therefore he is the second best coach ever after Sir Alf."

People need to bear in mind that 20-odd years ago under Sir Trevor Brooking the FA undertook a root and branch reform of English football, including St George's Park as the England National Football Centre and the young player development programme.

The seeds that were sown began to bear fruit when our development teams started to reach finals and then started winning major tournaments, thus bringing a winning tournament mentality to the full England squad.

I would argue Southgate has had better, tournament-savvy players coming through regularly - a huge advantage that his predecessors didn't have. Therefore, I believe the benchmark against which his achievements should be measured should be higher than his predecessors. Arguably it should be based on what our U17, U18, U19, U21 teams have achieved.

Back in 2017 England beat Spain 5-2 in the U17 World Cup Final. Our team contained Mark Guehi, Phil Foden, Conor Gallagher, Emile Smith Rowe, Hudson Odoi and Gibbs-White.

Our U19 squad won the Euros in 2022, our U21S won the Euros in 2023. Last year's winning side contained Branthwaite, Colwill, Palmer, Gordon and our own Carl Rushworth.

In broader terms I think we need to upgrade the minimum success benchmark from quarter-final to semi-final, but when you have home advantage or a favourable draw that gets revised upwards again.

And in the same way that Tony Bloom axed Hughton in pursuit of more attractive football I think the FA are entitled to apply the same criteria to England.

Also, perhaps, he should be compared to the women’s team?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

WTF have we been doing? Gareth isn't alone in missing the spot, but surely over the past ten years we've had some of the best players available?

Other nations also have had, and still do have, great players though; France, Italy, Spain and Germany have all had some superb players over the past decade or so. This is not exclusive to England. I think some folk forget this because some players choose to ply their trade at Barca, Real, Bayern etc and not in the Premier League. Not suggesting this is the case with you btw

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Has Randy McMuppet come back yet?

Not yet. the silence is deafening

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

In fairness, you're probably right. The purist and the pragmatist will rarely agree on the fundamentals. For me, it's also about falling in love with the football a side plays, not winning by default because you've bored the other side and your own fans to death.
"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It's nothing of the kind. The game is about glory."
- Danny Blanchflower

As I've pointed out in previous posts, it is quite possible to win tournaments with attacking football, at least more attacking than England are currently playing which is not admittedly not hard. Spain are going into tomorrow night's game as favourites playing a more expansive style of football with effective use of wingers. So it's never a straight choice between playing football that's easy on the eye or winning tournaments. There's an argument to be made that if you do the former, you're more likely to get the latter.

But for what it's worth, we're probably closer than at first, so thank you for the detailed reply which clarifies a few things. The football that I'd prefer wouldn't be gung ho throwing bodies desperately forward. To lose 5-4 would mean that there'd be at least 5 occasions where we'd have lost control of the ball, so I wouldn't be in favour of that. Besides, even the most attacking sides will often press - defend from the front, attack from the back. It's more to do with a fluid style and clever movement off the ball. Of all the players England have, Cole Palmer would be the one I'd liked to have seen a lot more of this tournament.

As regards your lengthy replies to other posters on the other topics, there's no point in repetition so that's fair enough. And clipping your post to the crux probably allows us to talk about the main thing rather than whether a 3rd place Nations League finish in the past outweighs a relegation in the present among other things. But it's always been a game of opinions.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the balance of praise/criticism that's acceptable. There are probably different lines in the sand here, but as long as it's backed up with argument and there's civility and respect despite disagreement, robust debate about football on a football message board shouldn't ever be off limits. Nuance is important and whilst I'm not likely to put on any kid gloves for typing about Southgate any time soon, I'll always try and look for things to agree on rather than the opposite.

Finally, I really hope we win tomorrow and Southgate will get more appreciation from everyone, myself included. I'll be more than happy to do that. Despite what the mischievous title of the thread might suggest, it wouldn't be a case of being "wrong" as the poor performances earlier in the tournament haven't remotely suggested an England win. But equally, if it doesn't happen, I won't feel vindicated, just disappointed that it hasn't happened mixed with the nagging doubt that someone else might have got them there with a different style. But that's for tomorrow. In the meantime, enjoy the game and may the best team win!

Apologies for the slow reply, my internet went missing. I had to watch the final at 4.a.m on my phone.

Yeah, I think agreeing to disagree is the best course of action. Especially with last night being what I'm sure was Southgates last game. Regardless of the F.A's wishes I just can't see Southgtae staying. The past few weeks he's looked kind of haggard and beaten down, he must know that the majority has turned against him.

We can move on to the next man up. Hopefully he'll keep the positive aspects of Southgate's reign but add a bit more tactical nous and footballing flair to the playing side of things.

 

[AlexBH]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Netherlands and possibly Croatia are the only 2 nations we’ve beaten in the top 10 of the FIFA rankings at a major tournament in Southgate’s tenure. Certainly IMO we haven’t beaten what I would consider a top class team like Spain, France, Brazil, Argentina at a major tournament. For all of the progress we have made under Southgate and certainly he has performed much better than any England manager for over 50 years, but this is still one big obstacle for us to overcome before we can win a major tournament.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree that this ‘entitlement’ did exist but now I think it’s a narrative that we are carrying about like a millstone around out necks.

I don’t feel entitled to win anything, but my expectations are high and I think they should be. RDZ reinforced that. It’s okay to set high standards and expect more. It’s not okay to be disrespectful.

I expect England to win something and failure to do so is just that, failure.

But I agree with your opening point and the point you make about triggering change. The danger is that the FA fail to see the triggers now.

I agree.

But I'd like to think that you and eye are sensible chaps free from entitlement ourselves. The most I have done in the past when England are knocked out is raise an eyebrow. I consider that we ought to be winning competitions but I don't really have expectations that we will.

If we scrub off everything before 2000 as part of the dinosaur era then, give or take a wally in a brolly, we are doing pretty much as expected (by me). Perhaps this is somewhat short of what we ought to be achieving, of course.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

As with everything now, it seems like you have to have a binary view. He's either good or rubbish.

For Southgaate it's simply not the case. He was a limited club manager when he was handed the job. England were at an all time low after Iceland and then 1 game Sam. Remember, at that time there was a complete division between the squad/press/fans. Players always dropping out of friendlies etc etc.

He has his limitations as a coach, we can all acknowledge that. I get hugely frustrated with some of the decisions as I can see the quality the team has potentially and ultimately I think it's time for someone else to take over the football side of things.

But my god, has he turned around the whole feel of the national team. That should never be forgotten.

And looks what he's handing over to someone else. These players who have already been/or played in a tournament
Mainoo 18
Wharton 20
Bellingham 21
Saka (somehow still only) 22
Palmer 22
Gordon 22
Guehi 24
Foden 24
Rice 25
Trent 25

Then you look at the u21s

Madueke
Rico Lewis
Livramento
Colwill
Lewis Hall
Harwood-Bellis

And more. The next manager, apart from an obvious "next harry kane" could have a lovely time.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

As with everything now, it seems like you have to have a binary view. He's either good or rubbish.

For Southgaate it's simply not the case. He was a limited club manager when he was handed the job. England were at an all time low after Iceland and then 1 game Sam. Remember, at that time there was a complete division between the squad/press/fans. Players always dropping out of friendlies etc etc.

He has his limitations as a coach, we can all acknowledge that. I get hugely frustrated with some of the decisions as I can see the quality the team has potentially and ultimately I think it's time for someone else to take over the football side of things.

But my god, has he turned around the whole feel of the national team. That should never be forgotten.

And looks what he's handing over to someone else. These players who have already been/or played in a tournament
Mainoo 18
Wharton 20
Bellingham 21
Saka (somehow still only) 22
Palmer 22
Gordon 22
Guehi 24
Foden 24
Rice 25
Trent 25

Then you look at the u21s

Madueke
Rico Lewis
Livramento
Colwill
Lewis Hall
Harwood-Bellis

And more. The next manager, apart from an obvious "next harry kane" could have a lovely time.

he’s handing over players, that were handed to him through U21’s etc. You look at the list and think ‘how did we not win!!’ which I think says it all.

He was safe pair of hands which was very much needed at the time, however being a safe pair of hands doesn’t win you games, if your style of football has been consigned to the bin.

Obviously a lovely bloke but with tactical limitations…..

 

[martin tyler]

I sort of understand why we went 4 at the back. Spain's threat was on the wing and I guess the plan was to counter that. I not sure the pound land Christmas tree formation did that though.

Isn’t this sort of what people are saying though. It could be perceived as negative to do this instead of playing to our strengths we set up to defend and nullify the opposition. Way we set up in the end worked for 45 minutes but we carried no threat and a slight tweak in what they did and Yamal and Williams suddenly were having chances.
This nullifying idea didn’t play to our attacking strengths. We played our best football v Holland in the 3421 system. Instead last night we let them impose there game on us not the other way around

 

[Hamilton]

I agree.

But I'd like to think that you and eye are sensible chaps free from entitlement ourselves. The most I have done in the past when England are knocked out is raise an eyebrow. I consider that we ought to be winning competitions but I don't really have expectations that we will.

If we scrub off everything before 2000 as part of the dinosaur era then, give or take a wally in a brolly, we are doing pretty much as expected (by me). Perhaps this is somewhat short of what we ought to be achieving, of course.

You've certainly hit on something there.

I'm interested as to why I've moved from wailing and bawling my eyes out to that Roger Mooreesque eyebrow raise when we go out. I've gone from 'mwah!' to 'meh' and need to work out whether that's due to age, multiple disappointments, or the expectation that those in positions of power will continue to make the same decisions i.e. we need a safe pair of hands.

If we look at the past 24-years (and after all, football wasn't invented until the advent of the Premier League), then you're right, we might say we are doing okay. But then again, when you look at the sheer amount of money that has flooded into English football over and above other nations, then you might say we've squandered riches (or allowed our clubs to).

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Isn’t this sort of what people are saying though. It could be perceived as negative to do this instead of playing to our strengths we set up to defend and nullify the opposition. Way we set up in the end worked for 45 minutes but we carried no threat and a slight tweak in what they did and Yamal and Williams suddenly were having chances.
This nullifying idea didn’t play to our attacking strengths. We played our best football v Holland in the 3421 system. Instead last night we let them impose there game on us not the other way around

I suppose my point is we went 4 at the back to shore up but all we seemed to do was give them more space in any case. Even Rio Ferdinand seemed to notice they had more space on the left than that around someone who'd farted after a curry at half time. On the flip side it didn't seem to create an overload for us either. It neither did one thing or another and we did nothing about it from the bench or half time either.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Netherlands and possibly Croatia are the only 2 nations we’ve beaten in the top 10 of the FIFA rankings at a major tournament in Southgate’s tenure. Certainly IMO we haven’t beaten what I would consider a top class team like Spain, France, Brazil, Argentina at a major tournament. For all of the progress we have made under Southgate and certainly he has performed much better than any England manager for over 50 years, but this is still one big obstacle for us to overcome before we can win a major tournament.

OK.

England knocked out Germany at the last Euros.