Thou shalt murder

[Mellotron]

Sorry that does not add up. The concept that life begins at the moment of conception is a religious one. A cluster of cells is not a human being and is not capable of life outside the womb so to assert otherwise is either based on a religious viewpoint about creation and/or an ignorance of scientific fact. Alternatively you may of course simply not believe that women have the right to control their own fertility.

The stance of anti-abortionists is also IMO deeply hypocritical for two reasons. The first is that the anti-choice lobby are usually also against effective sex education in schools and elsewhere which would reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and secondly that abortions were carried out before 1967 it was just that the wealthy could afford safe ones and usually escaped prosecution while the rest of the country faced risky back street operations and the possibility of jail.

Good reasoned response. My point is that it is clearly going to be a life. It's totally different to saying wasting a sperm is murder because even when an egg is fertilised loads of sperm die in the attempt, so by that logic no one should ever even try.

It's the issue of whether people should have the right to stop the foetus becoming a baby. Nothing religious about it. I wouldn't force my views onto anyone for a minute.

 

[Acker79]

If it's not living then there's no problem and no need for an abortion. And if it's not human, what is it? Assuming both father and mother are human, that kind of narrows it down ...

How do you define human? By body shape? a zygote/blastocyst/embryo doesn't have that. Consciousness? a zygote/blastocyst/embryo doesn't have hat, and there's debate about whether a fetus has that. Fully-formed working brain? Not in a zygote/blastocyst/embryo.

Is it living if it only survives through a parasitic existence?

Abortions aren't (just) about ending lives they are about ending pregnancies.

 

[Acker79]

Good reasoned response. My point is that it is clearly going to be a life.

But that's not true. A fertilised egg does not always lead to a life (if we're define life as a living birth). Sometimes fertilised eggs fail to implant in a womb and are expelled as a regular period. Sometimes people miscarry (either due to the egg not being viable, ectopic pregnancies, or some sort of trauma). A fertilised egg may have the potential to become life, but it isn't clearly going to be one.

New study establishes when pregnancy starts

Fertilized eggs attach themselves to the lining of the womb six to 12 days after ovulation, the research shows. In most successful pregnancies, that implantation -- the real start of pregnancy -- occurs on day eight, nine or 10 following ovulation. Day eight appears to be the most successful.

The later the attachment takes place, the more likely a pregnancy will end on its own, the scientists found.

Conceivably -- no pun intended – as a natural protective mechanism, the uterus tends to reject fertilized eggs that take too long to adhere to the lining because they may be less fit, the researchers say. On day 11, more than 50 percent of pregnancies fail and on day 12, that number jumps to over 80 percent.

Of those 189 pregnancies, 141 lasted at least six weeks past the last menstrual cycle, and the other 48 ended in early loss, the scientist said. Among pregnancies lasting six weeks or more, the first detectable rise in the level of a hormone known as chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) -- an indicator of successful attachment of a fertilized egg to the uterus wall -- occurred six to 12 days after ovulation.

"The risk of early loss was strongly related to the time of implantation," the authors wrote. "Early loss was least likely when implantation occurred by the ninth day (13 early losses among 102 pregnancies, or 13 percent) rising to 26 percent (14 of 53 pregnancies) when implantation occurred on the 10th day, 52 percent (12 of 23) on the 11th day and 82 percent (9 of 11) with implantation after day 11."

 

[Mellotron]

But that's not true. A fertilised egg does not always lead to a life (if we're define life as a living birth). Sometimes fertilised eggs fail to implant in a womb and are expelled as a regular period. Sometimes people miscarry (either due to the egg not being viable, ectopic pregnancies, or some sort of trauma). A fertilised egg may have the potential to become life, but it isn't clearly going to be one.

New study establishes when pregnancy starts

Ok I'll rephrase it. I didn't mention egg, I was referring to foetuses. A foetus is almost definitely going to become a baby.

 

[Acker79]

Ok I'll rephrase it. I didn't mention egg, I was referring to foetuses. A foetus is almost definitely going to become a baby.

Even then, in a healthy woman, there's up to a 5% chance of miscarriage. Greater still if the woman has a history of miscarriage.

First Questions

 

[Mellotron]

Even then, in a healthy woman, there's up to a 5% chance of miscarriage. Greater still if the woman has a history of miscarriage.

First Questions

Ok, so my comment still holds up.

 

[Acker79]

Ok, so my comment still holds up.

Depends on the mother. According to that link a woman who has suffered multiple miscarriages can be at a 60% risk of another miscarriage. The 5% figure is in a healthy woman, it obviously increases in women who are not so healthy. Personally, I think more than 1 in 20 pregnancies that reach the foetal stage ending in a miscarriage means "almost definitely" is overstating it. But I guess that's something we'll have to disagree on.

 

[Albion Rob]

This is very important but please could we go back to the Christain fundamentalists squaring off against the athiest fundamentalists? It's a fun read.

The NSC Delusion - where two sets of people with opposing views think they can convince each other of their argument via a football website.

 

[Don Quixote]

It's 2012. People who still have their lives dictated to them through religion make my toes curl with embarrassment. It was dreamt up to keep the classes down and keep the power with the rich.

As for abortion adverts - I think it's excellent news. It should never be used as a means of birth control but it does have a place in a modern society - religious dogma doesn't.

And now they have their lives dictated to them by scientists masquerading as authors.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

A lovely graphic banner of an aborted foetus on the corner by BHASVIC this morning with some anti-abortionist handing out leaflets. Lovely picture to have pointing in view of a nursery.

 

[magoo]

On the 30th april 'for profit' abortion clinics will be allowed to advertise the encouragement of murder on tv and radio. Discuss

BBC News - Abortion clinics cleared for TV by advertising body

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

 

[NMH]

This is very important but please could we go back to the Christain fundamentalists squaring off against the athiest fundamentalists? It's a fun read.

The NSC Delusion - where two sets of people with opposing views think they can convince each other of their argument via a football website.

....and where another can pretend they have intelligence without adding anything considered whatsoever.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Yes in the eyes of man made laws it is 'legal'. Which is why you all think it's ok. Funny how alot of you get very passionate and opinionated about stephen lawrence, jamie bulger etc etc. but when it comes to a baby who hasn't had the chance to take its first breath and see the beauty of the world, then its ok. It is still the taking of a life. It is still a human knowingly taking the life of another. The double standards is amazing. Because society says it's ok you don't question it.

Not at all. As always, you've twisted this discussion into something more than debating abortion laws by bringing a religious agenda into the debate. All you have done with your "thou shalt not murder (it's kill is it not!?)" and calling it an encouragement to murder, is totally slant what could, and has over the next few pages once you've dropped out of the discussion, developed into a reasoned dialogue.

You are frankly an idiot, a typically arrogant deluded attention seeking small minded individual regardless of your religious beliefs. There are deeply religious people that are incredibly reasoned and compassionate human beings, Dr Rowan Williams being a prime example. You on the other hand are a poisoned little berk that get's off on going around internet forums trying to inflame, and insight with your hateful self righteous rhetoric. You really are no different to the fanatics that every religion has that somehow believe they are completely right, and everyone else is yet to be 'enlightened'.

When I watched Four Lions, I thought of you, and I suspect everyone who has read your posts knows exactly which character from that film I mean.


edit: added clip featuring 'Barry', probably my favourite scene from the film...

 

[marshy68]

On the 30th april 'for profit' abortion clinics will be allowed to advertise the encouragement of murder on tv and radio. Discuss

BBC News - Abortion clinics cleared for TV by advertising body

murder is illegal in this country abortion isnt = end of thread simples really

 

[Triggaaar]

Yes in the eyes of man made laws it is 'legal'. Which is why you all think it's ok. Funny how alot of you get very passionate and opinionated about stephen lawrence, jamie bulger etc etc. but when it comes to a baby who hasn't had the chance to take its first breath and see the beauty of the world, then its ok. It is still the taking of a life. It is still a human knowingly taking the life of another. The double standards is amazing. Because society says it's ok you don't question it.

Just because we don't share your views you assume we can't think for ourselves. Having watched two of my own babies die I'm well aware of how precious life is, but early pregnancy fetuses are not babies.

Boring religious shit. If you opposed abortion for well thought out moral reasons I would actually have some time and respect for you but you don't. You oppose abortion because the man who interprets your sky daddies words for you tells you it is naughty so you believe it is naughty.

So true.

 

[marshy68]

i am not sure how derbygull can compare jamie bulger and steven lawrence to the termination of a pregnancy to me its like saying you would sanction the death penalty if your mother was murdered. Can any of us remember being in the womb were any of us concious to being alive then? I am on my 4th cycle of IVF they have all failed and i would dearly want a child so would my fiance - but i would never take away the right of a woman to choose and control her own body whatever the reasons. People must be free to choose in a open an progressive society.

Anyway i think vicente is..........