This question has been bugging me for years but I've never Googled it

[fatbadger]

I asked this question to a Mandarin speaker so I know the answer to this.

The West changed the pronunciation system some years ago from Wade-Giles to Pinyin. Pinyin was developed in China in the 50s and made its way westwards. I don't exactly know when the new system was adopted but it would have been some time in the 70s I guess.

My friend was indignant about inconsistencies however. For example, we say tofu in the west - the W-G pronunciation - instead of saying dofu - the pinyin version.

Not far off, although the important point is that Wades-Giles and Pinyin aren't pronunciation systems - they are transliteration systems. In the Wade-Giles transliteration system, the letter P is pronounced very soft, akin to a hard B, and K is pronounced 'zh' (like the S in 'treasure'). Thus the correct pronunciation was always (roughly) as we say Beijing. Unfortunately, the Wade-Giles system, designed for scholars who knew how to pronounce it, led to the general public (and then everybody else) pronouncing Peking as if it were an English word, ie with the hard K and the hard P. The Pinyin system is designed to make it easier for English speakers to pronounce Chinese names by transliterating according to English phonology. The Wade-Giles system was an international system which covered more sounds than English has, and which could be easily translating into a pronunciation system according to the first language of the user.

 

[footychick]

Mumbai mix, mmmm maybe not.

 

[Titanic]

Holland and The Netherlands... what's that all about then?

edit: or apparently the full name is Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden. I'm confused

 

[The Spanish]

Brighton, and the 'City of Brighton and Hove'.

 

[fatbadger]

Holland and The Netherlands... what's that all about then?

That's quite easy. The country is the Netherlands. Holland refers to one of the provinces which makes up the Netherlands (nowadays split into two proovinces, North Holland and South Holland). Calling the country Holland is like calling Britain "England", or "Scotland", or "Wales". It's just wrong, and it really annoys me when the football commentators call the team "Holland'. Ignorant tossers.

 

[Man of Harveys]

That's quite easy. The country is the Netherlands. Holland refers to one of the provinces which makes up the Netherlands (nowadays split into two proovinces, North Holland and South Holland). Calling the country Holland is like calling Britain "England", or "Scotland", or "Wales". It's just wrong, and it really annoys me when the football commentators call the team "Holland'. Ignorant tossers.

And yet the Brits call them all "the Dutch" - which, entertainingly, has very much the same etymology as the "Deutsch", as in Deutschland...which is why the Americans call the Amish "Pennsylvania Dutch", when they in fact originate from Germany. I tried to explain all this to my French ex, to no avail. We're no longer together, strangely.

 

[Juan Albion]

Does this question REALLY bug you?

I mean, do you actually lose sleep at night due to this important issue?

It's time to let it go, my friend, move on. Beijing it is. The world continues to turn.

It does, because someone somewhere decided to inflict this change on us and I'm intrigued to know who and why. We've had a few answers to the 'why' but not the 'who.' It doesn't keep me awake at night but it I have been wondering for a long time how this kind of change happens.

If, as has been suggested, it is to make it closer to the way it is pronounced using one Chinese system, then that is hardly a good reason. I mean, do we now all call Paris 'Paree' since we all know that is closer to how it is to the French? How about Gothenburg, Moscow, Lisbon, Geneva, Vienna, Florence, Athens?

So who exactly is it that decides these things for us anyway?

 

[fatbadger]

If, as has been suggested, it is to make it closer to the way it is pronounced using one Chinese system, then that is hardly a good reason. I mean, do we now all call Paris 'Paree' since we all know that is closer to how it is to the French?

I suppose the point is that the Wade-Giles "Pekin"/"Peking" caused a modern error; the English pronunciation of Paris is longstanding and has evolved into the current form. You also have to accept that, whereas pronunciation is historical and cultural, transliteration is modern intervention and thus a more technical issue.

 

[Man of Harveys]

So who exactly is it that decides these things for us anyway?

I wouldn't be that surprised if the British rapidness in changing names and pronunciation compared to that in other countries has a lot to do with the BBC's rapidness to change.

 

[Juan Albion]

I suppose the point is that the Wade-Giles "Pekin"/"Peking" caused a modern error; the English pronunciation of Paris is longstanding and has evolved into the current form. You also have to accept that, whereas pronunciation is historical and cultural, transliteration is modern intervention and thus a more technical issue.

But surely the important thing with language is that we all know what we mean when we say something? Was anyone confused by 'Peking'? Do we owe some kind of debt to the country involved? What you have put is just an explanation of how the 'error' occurred in the first place, not a clear reason why we HAVE to change a longstanding pronunciation (longer than any of us have lived I suspect)?

And again I ask, who is it that decides this for us anyway?

 

[Juan Albion]

I wouldn't be that surprised if the British rapidness in changing names and pronunciation compared to that in other countries has a lot to do with the BBC's rapidness to change.

I think you are close to the mark. What I've really been getting at all along is that this is a fine example of the power of the media.

 

[Notters]

Just to make matters more confusing, in France Beijing is still known as Peking, and these the Peking Olympics...

 

[fatbadger]

But surely the important thing with language is that we all know what we mean when we say something? Was anyone confused by 'Peking'? Do we owe some kind of debt to the country involved? What you have put is just an explanation of how the 'error' occurred in the first place, not a clear reason why we HAVE to change a longstanding pronunciation (longer than any of us have lived I suspect)?

And again I ask, who is it that decides this for us anyway?

To be fair, it was the system of transliteration that was changed, not the pronunciation. The pronunciation naturally followed, which is fine, as far as I am concerned. Interestingly, of course, the Wade-Giles system (an international system) has been replaced by an anglocentric one (Pinyin), which is the opposite of the usual changes which are usually complained about.

And we are already seeing a shift in the pronunciation of Beijing, if the BBC's Olympics coverage is anything to go by. Commentators are already pronouncing the 'j' in Beijing hard, as in 'dj', rather than soft, as in 'zh' (closer to the 'correct' version). So don't worry, a new English way of pronouncing the capital of China is already in the process of being created!

 

[queens park pete]

I wonder if the same will ever happen in Wales, where all the Welshified place names will return to their original spellings:

Porthmadog goes back to Port Madoc
Trefforest goes back to Treforest

etc...

I think you'll find they have returned to the original names..... Tref is Welsh for town, and porth means harbour. Madoc was the German officer in Dad's army etc.

 

[pasty]

Bombay >> Mumbai
Rhodesia >> Zimbabwe
Opal Fruits >> Starburst
Marathon >> Snickers

Why oh why ....

jif>>cif
louise nurding>>redknapp, i agree why oh why

Mark McGhee >> Lardy Jocko Clown

why oh why

 

[Gwylan]

I think you'll find they have returned to the original names..... Tref is Welsh for town, and porth means harbour. Madoc was the German officer in Dad's army etc.

Close - tre is Welsh for town.

Madoc was the legendary prince who reputedly discovered American (and the German office in Dad's Army)

 

[Slough Seagull]

To be fair, it was the system of transliteration that was changed, not the pronunciation. The pronunciation naturally followed, which is fine, as far as I am concerned. Interestingly, of course, the Wade-Giles system (an international system) has been replaced by an anglocentric one (Pinyin), which is the opposite of the usual changes which are usually complained about.

And we are already seeing a shift in the pronunciation of Beijing, if the BBC's Olympics coverage is anything to go by. Commentators are already pronouncing the 'j' in Beijing hard, as in 'dj', rather than soft, as in 'zh' (closer to the 'correct' version). So don't worry, a new English way of pronouncing the capital of China is already in the process of being created!

and lets not get started on the BBC's variety of pronunciation for Qingdao...

 

[eastlondonseagull]

and just when did Playpeople become Playmobil...bloody Eurozone

Yeah, Playpeople were fab

.

 

[See-Goals]

What a refreshing thread. I like it when the brains of NSC show themselves

 

[eastlondonseagull]

When I travelled round China four years ago, mainly using trains and public buses to get from A to B, we chatted to the locals for hours using the Lonely Planet's dictionary as a go-between.

They would snatch the book out of our hands, read the Mandarin question on the page, and then pass the book back, pointing to the phrase. Something like: "What is your name"

We would then read the pinyin answer back aloud and point to the Mandarin response, too: "My name is..."

Had loads of great 'conversations' that way. Was well weird, because many of the people we met had never seen a white person before.

.