The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Deleted member 22389]

When is Merkel going to start listening to the views of German people? Going on recent polls it's not looking good at the moment.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

yes its true what i said,some people have indeed said the EU will punish us and not trade with us .but thankfully you don’t need to worry as it’s a lie and just another part of the fear agenda
you can stop being concerned that its serious or even real

Thank you for smoothing my furrowed brow. If people on here have, as you report, said that the EU will simply not trade with us then that makes them very naughty fibbers. Obviously, if they haven't said that then the very naughty fibber is, well, you know, sorry to say this, you. Just show us where it was said and we'll have the whole matter cleared up in no time.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

When is Merkel going to start listening to the views of German people? Going on recent polls it's not looking good at the moment.

I wouldn't read too much into this, it's no different to the mid-term bashing UK government's get. That said, I'd like the SDP to have more power, so it's no too bad a thing.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I wouldn't read too much into this, it's no different to the mid-term bashing UK government's get. That said, I'd like the SDP to have more power, so it's no too bad a thing.

The women needs to go. To see an advanced country like this, who I have much respect for in regards of manufacturing now resorting to handing out booklets to migrants explaining how to behave around women is just laughable. In my eyes she has damaged the image of her country.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I wouldn't read too much into this, it's no different to the mid-term bashing UK government's get. That said, I'd like the SDP to have more power, so it's no too bad a thing.

No different? Why is the Irish Independent using terms such as 'Shock defeat' and 'Rise of the far right' then? Maybe you wouldn't read too much into this, I however am very concerned about a big backlash in Europe, particularly France, Germany, Scandinavia and eastern Europe.

http://m.independent.ie/world-news/...larming-rise-of-german-farright-34537344.html

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Isn't all of this obvious and uncontroversial? Not being facetious.

I would agree it's obvious that the deal (such as it is) cannot in any way be considered irreversible and it isn't legally binding where it matters .. enshrined in a treaty. Which contradicts the view of the PM, the government and you ... oo err controversial. This was meant to be the substantial new relationship that heralded a new era of UK/ EU relations and the basis by which many people are meant to make a decision on our future. The Brexit camp are often asked for certainty yet the Eurin* camp can't even guarantee this meagre deal will be delivered, controversy abounds.

The Prime Minister has said his deal ‘is already legally binding and irreversible’

The Government’s White Paper on the renegotiation claimed that the deal is ‘is legally binding, irreversible and delivers for the United Kingdom’

"we have our 'cast-iron' opt out from ever-closer-union" - 5ways

*Eurin - excellent term taken from the Times Letters page

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Why is the Irish Independent using terms such as 'Shock defeat' and 'Rise of the far right' then?

I have no idea mate; neither the BBC, Guardian, Telegraph or Reuters are using such terms. Out of interest why did you choose the Irish Independent?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I wouldn't read too much into this, it's no different to the mid-term bashing UK government's get. That said, I'd like the SDP to have more power, so it's no too bad a thing.

In normal times I'd agree but given the rise of anti-EU parties in Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the UK and most of all France I suspect the tide might be turning.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I have no idea mate; neither the BBC, Guardian, Telegraph or Reuters are using such terms. Out of interest why did you choose the Irish Independent?

I saw a headline. I think it was on the BBC but can't remember.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The women needs to go. To see an advanced country like this, who I have much respect for in regards of manufacturing now resorting to handing out booklets to migrants explaining how to behave around women is just laughable. In my eyes she has damaged the image of her country.

... and encouraged tens/hundreds of thousands of new migrants to make the perilous journey leaving her at least partially responsible for the death, misery and chaos. Any German leader who's actions and policies can reignite and increase anti migrant sentiment and far right support would you'd have thought seriously consider their position if they had any self respect that is. It says a lot about the state of German democracy, their press and the blinkered obsession with EU intergration that she isn't already fatally wounded politically speaking. Can you imagine a British PM surviving in similar circumstances .. me neither.

Far right and refugee crisis pile pressure on Angela Merkel

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/12/angela-merkel-elections-refugee-crisis-far-right

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

When is Merkel going to start listening to the views of German people? Going on recent polls it's not looking good at the moment.

absolute joker , sold the country to the Migrants without a care for her own, WOULD IT HAPPEN HERE
regards
DR

 

[5ways]

I would agree it's obvious that the deal (such as it is) cannot in any way be considered irreversible and it isn't legally binding where it matters .. enshrined in a treaty. Which contradicts the view of the PM, the government and you ... oo err controversial. This was meant to be the substantial new relationship that heralded a new era of UK/ EU relations and the basis by which many people are meant to make a decision on our future. The Brexit camp are often asked for certainty yet the Eurin* camp can't even guarantee this meagre deal will be delivered, controversy abounds.

The Prime Minister has said his deal ‘is already legally binding and irreversible’

The Government’s White Paper on the renegotiation claimed that the deal is ‘is legally binding, irreversible and delivers for the United Kingdom’

"we have our 'cast-iron' opt out from ever-closer-union" - 5ways

Haha - perhaps my quote would make a good signature flair? My understanding is that the agreement would be written into treaties. But I will have to read the parliament doc as I haven't had the time yet.

 

[5ways]

your link doesnt propose to do what you think it does, it will only prevent the most egregious avoidance where companies pay no tax anywhere by hiding the revenue source or keeping the cash offshore (and by that we mean relative to the companies global HQ, so we are offshore for a US company). it will not prevent companies booking revenue in a country with low tax, as they do currently. the EU isnt about to propose a system where all revenue in a country remains in that country for tax purposes, or are you suggesting the likes of VW and SocGen are about to start paying corporation tax in the UK for profits made there? that would be an interesting boon to us if it did...

the VAT issue you link to is also a different issue, it suggesting they "might" defer VAT setting power back to member states (how very big of them). it will not prevent the process of charging VAT at the local rate for where the company operates, unless they follow up with enforcing new rules that all companies must charge the rate where the sale is made, making every business into a EU wide tax collection agent with red tape attached. the EU giveth and the EU taketh away.

and finance is not going to move to Dublin or elsewhere, its fear mongering from those that support the remain campaign. many fund managers have said they'd stay in UK, some see it as inconsequential or a minor inconvience. only those that deal directly in EU based companies/funds/investments would have to even consider it, all those in UK or global market would see no difference in or out of the EU. this is the same story as we heard on the Euro, we must be in it to maintain the City jobs, we've seen that to be false. a few would setup offices in Dublin or elsewhere to carryout the back office functions while the main traders and mangers would remain in the UK - they aren't about to leave London and all the network and extra curricular activity available.

To come back to this -

doesn't the link say

"After its entry into force, which is expected sometime in spring this year, large multinational companies will have to provide information including revenues, profits, taxes paid, capital, tangible assets and the number of employees for each jurisdiction in which they operate."

meaning that where these profits are being booked must be made public. With the hope of leading to regulatory or public pressure I should imagine? It's not illegal to pay taxes in a low tax jurisdiction but making that transparent might lead to consumer changes? Or not, I depend on Amazon...What stronger action could be recommended?

Can you explain to me the VAT issue as I don't entirely understand it if it's not this 'missing trader' variety.

 

[beorhthelm]

To come back to this -

doesn't the link say

"After its entry into force, which is expected sometime in spring this year, large multinational companies will have to provide information including revenues, profits, taxes paid, capital, tangible assets and the number of employees for each jurisdiction in which they operate."

meaning that where these profits are being booked must be made public.

yep, finances could be made public. thats it, nothing will change in the where the revenue is booked and profits realised. if the head office is in Ireland we will see that x billions has gone in to Ireland and they paid tax there. if x billions gets transferred to another EU country then back to Ireland, those amounts will be seen. they are already known to the authorities, to the auditors, the only difference is it will be publicly reported. will this lead to a change of consumer behavior? doubtful, its been fairly common knowledge that a number of large companies avoid and evade tax through obscure means, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Google, Starbucks (the worst) and many other companies continue regardless. all the change will do is show us why Facebook or Amazon is not paying tax in the UK, it wouldn't make revenues magically become profits and taxed.

VAT changes might make it easier for the authorities to track and catch up with missing trader fraud, but that's a side issue and a passing comment in the article linked which was about returning powers on setting VAT to members. so no more absurd rules that that our Chancellor cant reduce or exempt products from VAT (several attempts by the last three Chancellors have been thwarted by EU rules). though it may also mean new rules that zero rated products are not permitted (yeah for food, medicines and children's clothing all going up!).

the main issue with VAT is the different rates, if Amazon charge Luxembourg VAT its lower than in the UK so they can undercut UK business while not paying UK VAT on UK sales. changes to how and where VAT charged may help here, but only in a manner that would be absorbed by large companies and add burdensome regulation for smaller companies. defering VAT setting to countries may compound the problem by having varying levels. the EU has spent the past two decades pressuring countries to standardise on VAT rate for precisely this reason. with that in mind it seems unlikely wholesale power to change VAT will return to members, probably some fudge so that they can make small downward adjustments for specific reasons, if the EU agrees.

 

[5ways]

yep, finances could be made public. thats it, nothing will change in the where the revenue is booked and profits realised. if the head office is in Ireland we will see that x billions has gone in to Ireland and they paid tax there. if x billions gets transferred to another EU country then back to Ireland, those amounts will be seen. they are already known to the authorities, to the auditors, the only difference is it will be publicly reported. will this lead to a change of consumer behavior? doubtful, its been fairly common knowledge that a number of large companies avoid and evade tax through obscure means, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Google, Starbucks (the worst) and many other companies continue regardless. all the change will do is show us why Facebook or Amazon is not paying tax in the UK, it wouldn't make revenues magically become profits and taxed.

VAT changes might make it easier for the authorities to track and catch up with missing trader fraud, but that's a side issue and a passing comment in the article linked which was about returning powers on setting VAT to members. so no more absurd rules that that our Chancellor cant reduce or exempt products from VAT (several attempts by the last three Chancellors have been thwarted by EU rules). though it may also mean new rules that zero rated products are not permitted (yeah for food, medicines and children's clothing all going up!).

the main issue with VAT is the different rates, if Amazon charge Luxembourg VAT its lower than in the UK so they can undercut UK business while not paying UK VAT on UK sales. changes to how and where VAT charged may help here, but only in a manner that would be absorbed by large companies and add burdensome regulation for smaller companies.

Ok thanks. So there is a floor VAT rate that can not be reduced further across the EU depending on the product, but states can raise VAT above that rate if they choose to? How does leaving the EU affect this, apart from our ability to undercut competitors VAT rates (a race to the bottom?).

 

[beorhthelm]

Ok thanks. So there is a floor VAT rate that can not be reduced further across the EU depending on the product, but states can raise VAT above that rate if they choose to? How does leaving the EU affect this, apart from our ability to undercut competitors VAT rates (a race to the bottom?).

yep, and sovereignty, the ability to determine our own tax policy. a "race to the bottom" is unlikely as countries depend heavily on VAT for revenue, except of course there may be a few that don't need so much revenue (like our little friend Luxembourg). but without EU restrictions it would mean our Chancellor could zero rate items like charity buildings (where the government is funding the building, so taxing itself), zero or lower rates for energy or other key services, or add products to those considered essential such as tampons. yeah, lol at the prospect of this happening past a few select headline grabbers, were talking in principle here.

 

[5ways]

yep, and sovereignty, the ability to determine our own tax policy. a "race to the bottom" is unlikely as countries depend heavily on VAT for revenue, except of course there may be a few that don't need so much revenue (like our little friend Luxembourg). but without EU restrictions it would mean our Chancellor could zero rate items like charity buildings (where the government is funding the building, so taxing itself), zero or lower rates for energy or other key services, or add products to those considered essential such as tampons. yeah, lol at the prospect of this happening past a few select headline grabbers, were talking in principle here.

But a lot of states with weak extractive tax bases rely on VAT to make up the budget. In Portugal or Greece let's say these VAT rules provide protection to their tax bases. If everyone could chip away at their VAT rates you would see businesses moving around for the best deal.

 

[Buzzer]

No different? Why is the Irish Independent using terms such as 'Shock defeat' and 'Rise of the far right' then? Maybe you wouldn't read too much into this, I however am very concerned about a big backlash in Europe, particularly France, Germany, Scandinavia and eastern Europe.

http://m.independent.ie/world-news/...larming-rise-of-german-farright-34537344.html

Personally, I'm just as worried about the rise of anti-semitism in the UK, especially from the left.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Personally, I'm just as worried about the rise of anti-semitism in the UK, especially from the left.

I agree. Anti Semitism is growing and in some quarters is seen as acceptable.

 

[Buzzer]

I agree. Anti Semitism is growing and in some quarters is seen as acceptable.

I haven't got the figures to hand but something of the order of 70% of Jews voted Tory in the last election even with a Jewish Labour leader and since then opinion polls have that figure consistently 10 or 15 points higher. There's clearly a problem.