The Ukraine/Russia Situation

[Czechmate]

Perhaps the Eastern Ukrainians and the people of Crimea don't want to be part of the original coup in Kiev ? They didn't have much say in the matter did they . Perhaps they asked for help from Moscow just like Kiev did with the EU and the US .

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Anyone comparing Putin to Hitler or contemplating a third world war with Russia needs their head examined.

We are seriously close to a 3rd World War I reckon. If Putin miscalculates and sends his unmarked soldiers into Estonia, then that's it. Article 5 invoked for only the 2nd time, and war with Russia is a reality.

At that point the only hope is that sense is seen, and Putin pulls back his troops.

 

[Czechmate]

Surely you can't be that naive? Ukraine has a problem and it's up to the Ukrainian people to sort it out, not for Russia to step in with arms and jackboots.
Putin had the excuse he wanted, protecting his base in the Crimea, and took it with both hands.

Quite right it is a Ukrainian situation and should be down to the Ukrainian people , whether in Crimea , the West or East of Ukraine . Then why did the US get involved in the changing of governments in the beginning , why was it that the Prime Minister went travelling all round the world , including White house to get support from as many countries as possible . He forgot to visit his Ukrainian countrymen in the East or in Crimea to ask their opinions .

The country is now in a sad state , electric power cuts twice a day in some cities , families torn apart with their men having to fight for Kiev if the want to or not, gas and oil nearly exhausted and from first hand accounts people who have visited Russia for any reason (and there are many families who have relatives in Russia) have had their e-mails hacked , people have been watched , companies with any Russian association at all have been closed down , due to food poisoning from one restaurant I know (allegedly) . The person who told me this was pro EU said it was the fascists in Kiev doing this and people are frightened and want to leave the country . I do believe if the whole country voted now the story would be different from the last vote .

Well the ones that were allowed to vote .

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Quite right it is a Ukrainian situation and should be down to the Ukrainian people , whether in Crimea , the West or East of Ukraine . Then why did the US get involved in the changing of governments in the beginning , why was it that the Prime Minister went travelling all round the world , including White house to get support from as many countries as possible . He forgot to visit his Ukrainian countrymen in the East or in Crimea to ask their opinions .

The country is now in a sad state , electric power cuts twice a day in some cities , families torn apart with their men having to fight for Kiev if the want to or not, gas and oil nearly exhausted and from first hand accounts people who have visited Russia for any reason (and there are many families who have relatives in Russia) have had their e-mails hacked , people have been watched , companies with any Russian association at all have been closed down , due to food poisoning from one restaurant I know (allegedly) . The person who told me this was pro EU said it was the fascists in Kiev doing this and people are frightened and want to leave the country . I do believe if the whole country voted now the story would be different from the last vote .

Well the ones that were allowed to vote .

I agree, and it's up to the Ukrainians to get rid of the Prime Minister, not for Russia to step in. It might be a bloody civil war, but better than the threat that's hanging over the whole of Europe now.

 

[Danny-Boy]

IMHO Putin needs slapping down hard now before he starts in on the Baltic States with his expansionist bullshit. For example, broken down by ethnic group, Estonia consists of 70% Estonians, 25% Russians, 5% Other. Estonia is getting along just fine as it is. Wouldn't take much effort by Putin to spin up some flimsy crap about oppressed Russian minorities. Estonia is currently worried and has every right to be so.

The big headache is Kaliningrad, a Russian enclave reliant on a corridor to access it through NATO countries.

That's how Hitler provoked Poland over the "Free City" of Danzig which was predominantly German before WW2 but surrounded by Poland. Hitler demanded free access to Danzig (now Gdansk) and then invaded Poland claiming that it was about to invade Danzig, I believe.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Putin might be a bit of a cock, but comparing him to Hitler, really?

Like him or not, he's an extremely competent world leader, as is evident with the way he's dealt with the Ukraine situation and Western sanctions. Despite these potentially crippling sanctions and the rouble tumbling, he's managed to strike deals to allow Russia to increase its military budget by 33% while at the same time his popularity in Russia is higher than ever, as is the "happiness" of the Russian population.

As always, Western nations, or particularly the USA, should stop trying to bully nations to do as they say, especially when they will not give in like Russia. The victims of this game is the Eastern Ukrainian people, there is a peaceful solution, but pathetic sanctions never work, they only provoke and cause greater suffering to regular people.

Mustafa siding with the guys in opposition to the west, quelle surprise?

 

[Danny-Boy]

We are seriously close to a 3rd World War I reckon. If Putin miscalculates and sends his unmarked soldiers into Estonia, then that's it. Article 5 invoked for only the 2nd time, and war with Russia is a reality.

At that point the only hope is that sense is seen, and Putin pulls back his troops.

What if he demands access to Kaliningrad then? Boris Yeltsin seriously talked in the 1990's of "selling" the city back to Germany as it has big historical links to the founding of the German state as Koenigsberg, the capital of East Prussia. Although it was virtually flattened in WW2 a lot of Germans go there on pilgrimages to see what is left of their old homeland.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

What if he demands access to Kaliningrad then? Boris Yeltsin seriously talked in the 1990's of "selling" the city back to Germany as it has big historical links to the founding of the German state as Koenigsberg, the capital of East Prussia. Although it was virtually flattened in WW2 a lot of Germans go there on pilgrimages to see what is left of their old homeland.

It would be a very dark day if that happened, and we'd be on the brink of disaster.

 

[Czechmate]

I agree, and it's up to the Ukrainians to get rid of the Prime Minister, not for Russia to step in. It might be a bloody civil war, but better than the threat that's hanging over the whole of Europe now.

It doesn't matter which way you look at the situation , it's the poor people of Ukraine , whether Russian speaking or not that I feel sorry for and through history they have had it hard . I met some men and women on a plane from Czech Republic to Donetsk during the Euro's , they were so friendly and we had a good laugh on the plane , one of the guys gave me a lift from the airport to the railway station and didn't want any payment at all .

Also a group of friends i was meeting with had their vehicle damaged , so they got help from some local people who took them to a garage to have their van repaired , they got invited to a party in the evening and had a great time until the van was ready . Two guys who I was with , one has got married and another one is due to be married in April to Ukrainian women . Brilliant people , it's just the outside influence unfortunately from both sides .

 

[Uncle Buck]

Perhaps the Eastern Ukrainians and the people of Crimea don't want to be part of the original coup in Kiev ? They didn't have much say in the matter did they . Perhaps they asked for help from Moscow just like Kiev did with the EU and the US .

But if they do not like the situation, perhaps, this ethnic Russians should head east over the border, rather than attempt land grabs.

They were happy to stay put in 1992, when being Ukrainian looked a better bet than being Russian, so they cannot have it both ways.

 

[Czechmate]

But if they do not like the situation, perhaps, this ethnic Russians should head east over the border, rather than attempt land grabs.

They were happy to stay put in 1992, when being Ukrainian looked a better bet than being Russian, so they cannot have it both ways.

Many 100,000's have gone back to Russia and perhaps they were living there in the Soviet times so didn't want to move . Bringing ethnicity into the argument is not really reality , what time zone do you go back to ? in that case most Ukrainians/Russians are Mongals then and I'm French .

 

[Uncle Buck]

Many 100,000's have gone back to Russia and perhaps they were living there in the Soviet times so didn't want to move . Bringing ethnicity into the argument is not really reality , what time zone do you go back to ? in that case most Ukrainians/Russians are Mongals then and I'm French .

Ethnicity has to come into it. These people are saying they are ethnic Russians, but the nations all agreed to the borders as part of the Treaty of Copenhagen.

So if they want to be Russians, the simple thing is to go over the Russian border.

One of the advantages we have of being an Island, is our historical borders do not change.

 

[Czechmate]

Ethnicity has to come into it. These people are saying they are ethnic Russians, but the nations all agreed to the borders as part of the Treaty of Copenhagen.

So if they want to be Russians, the simple thing is to go over the Russian border.

One of the advantages we have of being an Island, is our historical borders do not change.

Are they saying they are ethnic Russians , have they said this ? If so then fair enough but unless they have family in Russia it may be difficult as a refugee ? I don't know .

Too little too late really , before any of this had started the parliament should of had a national vote before any outside influence to see whether they wanted to back the president at the time or not , easy with hindsight but I guess it was important for the US/EU and Russia to get involved . The situation I read at the moment and from friends is that the Kiev government is not too popular presently .

 

[daveinprague]

Putin is the west's bogey man...but come on, to be the leader of a place like the Russias, you need to be a hard man. His fingers are all over this, but so are the Americans, paid agitators that were widely reported during the elections, the CIA, and American mercenaries fighting for the Ukrainian govt....but lets blame the Russians for the whole shitstorm.

 

[Czechmate]

Putin is the west's bogey man...but come on, to be the leader of a place like the Russias, you need to be a hard man. His fingers are all over this, but so are the Americans, paid agitators that were widely reported during the elections, the CIA, and American mercenaries fighting for the Ukrainian govt....but lets blame the Russians for the whole shitstorm.

That reminds me when the tv news reported two Englishmen and one US guy that were found fighting the IS in Iraq I think it was , when asked if they were mercenaries they said no we are not paid for being here probably on their hols

 

[daveinprague]

Russia is on the Ukraine's doorstep. The USA is what 4000 miles away? Who is interfering?

 

[vegster]

That reminds me when the tv news reported two Englishmen and one US guy that were found fighting the IS in Iraq I think it was , when asked if they were mercenaries they said no we are not paid for being here probably on their hols

No worse than the little army that popped up overnight in Crimea. Heavily armed well organised men don't grow on trees.

 

[Czechmate]

No worse than the little army that popped up overnight in Crimea. Heavily armed well organised men don't grow on trees.

It was a fact that the Russian army were allowed up to 25,000 troops to be based in Crimea at any given time , it was a key strategic area for Russia , oil and so on or as the US would say ' Of National Security' . Could you imagine what would of happened if the Hawaiian's wanted the US out of Pearl harbour ?

 

[Simster]

As I understand it, Eastern Ukraine isn't as much ethnically Russian as Russian-centric. There are loads of ethnic Russians there of course but most are not - they simply like being part of a Russian sphere of influence, whereas the rest of the Ukraine considers itself more central European, rather like the Polish. And this is the thing I think the US and EU are failing to grasp - the Russians and the East Ukrainians are not acting so much as blood thirsty tyrants as fiercely but illegally protecting what they have. Of course it doesn't justify the loss of life nor the Russians crossing the border with impunity, but I can well understand why it's happening. And we should consider the form the West has in starting illegal wars to protect it's own interests before indulging in the rank hypocrisy of criticising Putin for doing the same thing.

As a foot note, Russia wants to protect it's influence in Ukraine for the same reason as China hasn't crushed North Korea despite the utter madness of that state - it wants a buffer state between the heavily US-influenced South Korea. Same as Russia and the West.

 

[daveinprague]

Considering the majority of the population of Crimea is ethnic Russian, and considering the amount of military bases on the peninsular, it wouldjnt surprise me to see large numbers of ethnic Russians with miitary experience forming a militia overnight.