The Ipswich comparison

[Diego Napier]

Murray = CMS (transfer fee and wages), Painter (wages), Vokes (Wages) & Ulloa (fee and wages) his fee to Leicester probably just about covers the failures and his fee

Barnes = Rodriguez (wages), O'Grady (fee and wages), Baldock (fee wages) etc

All the Summer permanent signings now either being replaced with loans or looking to be replaced in January

Are what instantly springs to mind.

Well that's a right bugger's muddle you've posted; what point(s) are you trying to make? It looks like you've selected players to help support your view but ignored those that don't.

I want to know what evidence you have that we spend more by using loan players rather than buying expensive ones (or "biting the bullet" as you refer to it)?

To answer some of you examples:-

CMS v Murray - straight choice by Poyet, we "bit the bullet" and CMS has proved to be an expensive vanity buy that didn't work. Doesn't support your argument.

Painter - Marcos was a Poyet acquisition ideal for us in League 1, not good enough for the Championship therefore not retained so good business. Doesn't support your argument. Or do you mean Billy Paynter? Why not mention Wayne Bridge?

Vokes - instead of buying whom? Do you know what his wages were? How well did Stephen Ward do for us?

Ulloa - was a great pick by Poyet, we "bit the bullet" he was very successful for us and we cashed in. Doesn't support your argument.

Barnes v Rodriguez - Barnes chose not to accept a new contract, we got a great deal selling him to Burnley as he'd've left for free at the end of year. Do you know what Rodriguez's wages are? Who should we have bought and for how much?

O'Grady - We "bit the bullet" and bought him, hardly a cheaper player; are you suggesting we should've paid even more for someone else?

Baldock - We "bit the bullet" and bought him, hardly a cheaper player; are you suggesting we should've paid even more for someone else?

It seems to me that the club have a very sensible, balanced approach to the first team squad. They:

a). Develop our youth or Chelsea's rejects(!)
b). Take players that are out of contract elsewhere
c). Take players on loan
d). Buy players

We operated this model when Poyet selected the new recruits and continued since Burke arrived. What has changed is that TB has reigned in the excesses of the Poyet reign.

Some players in all 4 categories have been successful and some haven't, I believe this mirrors what happens at all football clubs.

 

[perseus]

I don't think I can stand 13 seasons of Championship middle of the table like Ipswich.

 

[1234andcounting]

Said last season McCarthy is a quality manager at this level and was met with responses of 'nothing special' etc. Also interesting to note 4 of current top 6 clubs have British managers.

And, ipso facto, two don't. Your point being?

 

[Felpham Seagull]

not me mate

 

[Bombadier Botty]

I don't think I can stand 13 seasons of Championship middle of the table like Ipswich.

If someone said to an Ipswich Town fan in 1977: "Here's a deal for you - next year you'll win the FA Cup and then three years later you'll win the UEFA Cup, but the trade off is that come the millenium you'll spend 13 years outside of the top flight, playing no lower than the second tier and never being threatened with relegation from it, deal or no deal?" I can't imagine many Ipswich fans turning that down can you? My heart bleeds for those long-suffering Ipswich fans who have had to cope with Championship football for so long.

 

[Barnham Seagull]

Well that's a right bugger's muddle you've posted; what point(s) are you trying to make? It looks like you've selected players to help support your view but ignored those that don't.

I want to know what evidence you have that we spend more by using loan players rather than buying expensive ones (or "biting the bullet" as you refer to it)?

To answer some of you examples:-

CMS v Murray - straight choice by Poyet, we "bit the bullet" and CMS has proved to be an expensive vanity buy that didn't work. Doesn't support your argument.

Painter - Marcos was a Poyet acquisition ideal for us in League 1, not good enough for the Championship therefore not retained so good business. Doesn't support your argument. Or do you mean Billy Paynter? Why not mention Wayne Bridge?

Vokes - instead of buying whom? Do you know what his wages were? How well did Stephen Ward do for us?

Ulloa - was a great pick by Poyet, we "bit the bullet" he was very successful for us and we cashed in. Doesn't support your argument.

Barnes v Rodriguez - Barnes chose not to accept a new contract, we got a great deal selling him to Burnley as he'd've left for free at the end of year. Do you know what Rodriguez's wages are? Who should we have bought and for how much?

O'Grady - We "bit the bullet" and bought him, hardly a cheaper player; are you suggesting we should've paid even more for someone else?

Baldock - We "bit the bullet" and bought him, hardly a cheaper player; are you suggesting we should've paid even more for someone else?

It seems to me that the club have a very sensible, balanced approach to the first team squad. They:

a). Develop our youth or Chelsea's rejects(!)
b). Take players that are out of contract elsewhere
c). Take players on loan
d). Buy players

We operated this model when Poyet selected the new recruits and continued since Burke arrived. What has changed is that TB has reigned in the excesses of the Poyet reign.

Some players in all 4 categories have been successful and some haven't, I believe this mirrors what happens at all football clubs.

The short version to your reply is that we could have kept Murray and Barnes by extending the contract and increasing the salary. By valuing the players we had.

Instead we spent £3M on CMS, £2m on Ulloa, £1.5-2m on Baldock and 500k on O'Grady along with all the loan strikers salaries and the new signings salaries and agents fee's.

We backed out on signing 2 or 3 players we were linked to because we would not pay the market rate we thought we would be clever and sign some players off of Burkes spread sheet. We will end up paying much more now to replace the poor signing we made.

What has changed is the manager now does not make the decision on who we sign, at best he is presented with a couple of options. This is the underlying problem and IMHO is one of the main reasons Poyet fell out with the club.

Barber has adopted the Spurs approach which Levy has now admitted doesn't work and will change it.

We obviously are opposite ends in our thinking so looks like we will disagree.

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

The more I read these threads the more I HATE our recruitment team.

 

[Diego Napier]

The short version to your reply is that we could have kept Murray and Barnes by extending the contract and increasing the salary. By valuing the players we had.

Instead we spent £3M on CMS, £2m on Ulloa, £1.5-2m on Baldock and 500k on O'Grady along with all the loan strikers salaries and the new signings salaries and agents fee's.

We backed out on signing 2 or 3 players we were linked to because we would not pay the market rate we thought we would be clever and sign some players off of Burkes spread sheet. We will end up paying much more now to replace the poor signing we made.

What has changed is the manager now does not make the decision on who we sign, at best he is presented with a couple of options. This is the underlying problem and IMHO is one of the main reasons Poyet fell out with the club.

Barber has adopted the Spurs approach which Levy has now admitted doesn't work and will change it.

We obviously are opposite ends in our thinking so looks like we will disagree.

You are confused, it was the manager (and not Burke's spread sheet) who decided to spend £3M on CMS and £2M on Ulloa. CMS was poor business because (as you say) Murray would have been the better bet but that was Poyet's call. Ulloa on the other hand turned out really well.

I'm not sure which 2 or 3 players you mean that we we backed out of signing but there is no such thing as a market rate. There is a transfer fee, a weekly wage and the length of the contract. If any of those variables exceed what the club believe a player is worth then they will walk away. Quite right too as they've chosen not to operate their business in the knee-jerk, reactive fashion that certain sections of the fanbase demand.

 

[The Large One]

You are confused, it was the manager (and not Burke's spread sheet) who decided to spend £3M on CMS and £2M on Ulloa. CMS was poor business because (as you say) Murray would have been the better bet but that was Poyet's call. Ulloa on the other hand turned out really well.

I'm not sure which 2 or 3 players you mean that we we backed out of signing but there is no such thing as a market rate. There is a transfer fee, a weekly wage and the length of the contract. If any of those variables exceed what the club believe a player is worth then they will walk away. Quite right too as they've chosen not to operate their business in the knee-jerk, reactive fashion that certain sections of the fanbase demand.

Well, it couldn't have been Burke's spreadsheet - he wasn't here.

 

[spring hall convert]

Could it be that Sammy Lee foresaw the problems we would have and jumped ship before boarding it?

No. He was offered a better job. If we are in such a mess why would he have accepted in the first place?

 

[flying high]

No. He was offered a better job. If we are in such a mess why would he have accepted in the first place?

Wasnt he out of work at the time or as actors say between jobs.

 

[IfieldBlue]

I don't think I can stand 13 seasons of Championship middle of the table like Ipswich.

Fair comment. Of course it would have been far more fun for them to sink down the leagues to the bottom tier, be within a hair’s breadth of sliding in to non league then spending several seasons grinding out results to get back to at least the championship. Not to mention losing your home, going 70 miles to a home game before finally going to spend several years playing at an athletics gound…..
Yes, the average Town fan has been doing his/her nut with the boredom of it all. Praps this year eh?