[Politics] The 2024 US Election - Trump v Harris

[Machiavelli]

I would argue that if your reason for not voting Biden is his mental acuity, you can’t seriously consider voting for Trump. Who’s running him?


This shows a high degree of political naivety. The Democrats are a centre-right party who are roughly equivalent to what the Conservative Party used to be here in Britain, although the current Conservative Party has moved to the right of them. Nowhere have the Democrats tried to end private ownership or curb the progress of business. They have correctly identified that trickle down economics is bullshit, and are suggesting that organisations pay their workers enough to live, but that’s still a capitalist move, as skint people can’t spend.

Republicans talk the talk of small government, but have never delivered on their talk, regardless of who’s leading them.

The simple fact of the matter is that all legislation must be enforced, which then requires an increase in the number of Civil Servants required. So for each civil or technological advancement that can potentially be misused, laws and regulations must come into place to deal with them. A functioning government can only grow as its society does.

Sensible individuals accept this as the cost of doing business and chip in their tax dollars, there’s always a few (in America a lot) who consider all tax theft.

They say this as kings of their domains, but they’d be the first to cry when a bigger boy came along and took what they considered theirs, if there wasn’t enforceable legislation there to protect them.

I can promise you that America has never even flirted with a socialist idea.

While I agree with you that the US isn't remotely socialistic, I'd quibble with your characterisation of the Biden Democrats as of the centre-right and akin to the Conservative Party of the past (unless you're talking about the 50s and 60s). Biden has shifted policy and the overall ideological framing from Clinton and Obama. It wasn't until Biden came along that trickle-down economics was declared as nonsense (Starmer has picked up on this too), and that there has been substantial state spending on a project via the Insurance Reduction Act. That's far closer to the New Deal project that coincided with the most successful period of the US' history.

 

[Jackthelad]

It's a cultural war of extremes. There is huge propaganda on both sides. Republicans view the Democratic party as dangerous nonces and pervs who are corrupt they point towards The Biden family, Hunter Biden's laptop, and then we have X accounts like Libs of TikTok who show the most radical of left and it scares the living hell out of conservatives. Then we have the Democratic Party who view Republicans as Nazis, White supremacists who support Russia and want are pro guns who want a handmaid's tale society. Both sides view themselves as "the good side" and the other as evil personified. We have two leaders running for the most powerful job in the world who are unfit for office, and in my opinion two corrupt parties who have made some disastrous mistakes.

 

[Stat Brother]

While I agree with you that the US isn't remotely socialistic, I'd quibble with your characterisation of the Biden Democrats as of the centre-right and akin to the Conservative Party of the past (unless you're talking about the 50s and 60s). Biden has shifted policy and the overall ideological framing from Clinton and Obama. It wasn't until Biden came along that trickle-down economics was declared as nonsense (Starmer has picked up on this too), and that there has been substantial state spending on a project via the Insurance Reduction Act. That's far closer to the New Deal project that coincided with the most successful period of the US' history.

However he's done it he's managed to reduce inflation faster than any other country.
Significantly reduced unemployment.
Wiped out student debt for low income families.

 

[Machiavelli]

However he's done it he's managed to reduce inflation faster than any other country.
Significantly reduced unemployment.
Wiped out student debt for low income families.

Well precisely. Oh for one term of an administration like Biden's.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

But electable?

Sadly, very much so.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

However he's done it he's managed to reduce inflation faster than any other country.
Significantly reduced unemployment.
Wiped out student debt for low income families.

I didn't know that. Impressive.

I am wondering whether our correspondent, @lasvegan thinks Trump could match that.

For those who are primarily obsessed with illegal immigrants, what are the 'illegal immigration' stats, @Stat Brother ? I read it in an unverified opinion piece (you can guess the rest) that Biden has let this 'soar' compared with the Great Wall era of Dump. What are the facts?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It's a cultural war of extremes. There is huge propaganda on both sides. Republicans view the Democratic party as dangerous nonces and pervs who are corrupt they point towards The Biden family, Hunter Biden's laptop, and then we have X accounts like Libs of TikTok who show the most radical of left and it scares the living hell out of conservatives. Then we have the Democratic Party who view Republicans as Nazis, White supremacists who support Russia and want are pro guns who want a handmaid's tale society. Both sides view themselves as "the good side" and the other as evil personified. We have two leaders running for the most powerful job in the world who are unfit for office, and in my opinion two corrupt parties who have made some disastrous mistakes.

I'm not sure that Hunter's laptop matches Trumps long list of frankly insane cockwomblery in terms of corruption-equivalence.

I don't buy into the 'they are all the same' narrative (which is designed to keep the swing voter away from the ballot box and upsetting the apple cart - for Dump and Sunk - you don't hear labour or Democrat supporters sighing and dismissing everyone as being all the same).

 

[Stat Brother]

I didn't know that. Impressive.

I am wondering whether our correspondent, @lasvegan thinks Trump could match that.

For those who are primarily obsessed with illegal immigrants, what are the 'illegal immigration' stats, @Stat Brother ? I read it in an unverified opinion piece (you can guess the rest) that Biden has let this 'soar' compared with the Great Wall era of Dump. What are the facts?

I don't know I would imagine the narrative is almost identical to over here.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don't know I would imagine the narrative is almost identical to over here.

I will have a look.

Like you (I presume) this is not the first thing I think about when I eat my breakfast. Or consider who is best suited to lead a country.

 

[Seagull58]

I didn't know that. Impressive.

I am wondering whether our correspondent, @lasvegan thinks Trump could match that.

For those who are primarily obsessed with illegal immigrants, what are the 'illegal immigration' stats, @Stat Brother ? I read it in an unverified opinion piece (you can guess the rest) that Biden has let this 'soar' compared with the Great Wall era of Dump. What are the facts?

According to the MAGA maniacs, such as Marge three toes and Bobo the groper, the border is wide open under Biden, and fentanyl has flooded into the country along with the illegals. The "evidence" they present for this opinion is the massive increase in the quantity of fentanyl SEIZED at the border. Their logic is impeccable.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don't know I would imagine the narrative is almost identical to over here.

Hmm.... it seems you're right. Who knew?

15 Myths About Immigration Debunked | Immigration | Carnegie Corporation of New York

Alex Nowrasteh of the Cato Institute offers nonpartisan facts in response to common myths about immigration

www.carnegie.org

Oh yes. This. Biden is dealing with far more illegal immigrants than Dump managed:

And yet I also recall someone posted on NSC that Biden is doing worse than Dump because the actual numbers of illegal immigrants that is undocumented* has increased disproportionately since Biden got in, because Biden is seen as, er, a soft touch and, er, didn't complete the half-arsed hardly-build wall that Dump started to 'build'.

There is nothing more determined than someone who has made up their mind and is untouchable by so-called facts.

That was 3 minutes of my life spent on research that I'll never get back.

*That means unknown. Except in the minds of Dump supporters. They know. Fact.

 

[Stat Brother]

I will have a look.

Like you (I presume) this is not the first thing I think about when I eat my breakfast. Or consider who is best suited to lead a country.

As said just like here when the chips are down the easy targets are your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, to make yourself seem stronger.

The border has never been anything other than a sieve since it was introduced.
There hasn't been a single measure introduced to change that, from any previous president.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

As said just like here when the chips are down the easy targets are your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, to make yourself seem stronger.

The border has never been anything other than a sieve since it was introduced.
There hasn't been a single measure introduced to change that, from any previous president.

Wonderful weaponizing opportunity, though.

 

[Stat Brother]

Wonderful weaponizing opportunity, though.

Only if you don't look at your own record on the same issue.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Only if you don't look at your own record on the same issue.

I have pointed out that the tories, the party who weaponized immigration and continue to make the weaponizing of immigration their chief weapon (not surprise), have presided over an insane increase in 'the boats'.

In what way is that me weaponizing the issue?

 

[Stat Brother]

I have pointed out that the tories, the party who weaponized immigration and continue to make the weaponizing of immigration their chief weapon (not surprise), have presided over an insane increase in 'the boats'.

In what way is that me weaponizing the issue?

It's not, it was a vague reference to the man of whom this thread is about.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It's not, it was a vague reference to the man of whom this thread is about.

Apologies.

 

[Stat Brother]

Apologies.

I don't want to be too overt, that might induce replies

 

[Zeberdi]

Wonderful weaponizing opportunity, though.

It certainly has been weaponised by Trump

The system was already broken but are people forgetting his inhumane enactment of policies that resulted in xenophobic attacks on families, kids torn away from their parents and locked on their own in detention, attacks on whole communities of people?

He introduced policies that threatened more than one million DACA recipients and TPS holders to deportation ( ie those born in the US), including hundreds of thousands of essential frontline workers who helped communities get through the Covid pandemic.

He introduced sweeping travel bans and separated families across the Country.

It wasn’t even ‘good politics’ and arguably Trump’s immigration policies cost the Republicans the House in the 2018 midterms with all the fear-mongering about the ‘invasion’ of the Southern Borders .

It’s hard to unpack propaganda from fact but the WH lied about how many people Trump’s wall stopped ( as mentioned in an earlier post upthread) Immigration increased after Covid but the Republicans have repeatedly refused to support the Democrats attempts for widespread reforms just so they could perpetuate their campaign tropes that immigration is worse under Biden.

Both parties have tried to slow down cross border crossings but I would rather support a party that does it fairly and humanely.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It certainly has been weaponised by Trump

The system was already broken but are people forgetting his inhumane enactment of policies that resulted in xenophobic attacks on families, kids torn away from their parents and locked on their own in detention, attacks on whole communities of people?

He introduced policies that threatened more than one million DACA recipients and TPS holders to deportation ( ie those born in the US), including hundreds of thousands of essential frontline workers who helped communities get through the Covid pandemic.

He introduced sweeping travel bans and separated families across the Country.

It wasn’t even ‘good politics’ and arguably Trump’s immigration policies cost the Republicans the House in the 2018 midterms with all the fear-mongering about the ‘invasion’ of the Southern Borders .

It’s hard to unpack propaganda from fact but the WH lied about how many people Trump’s wall stopped ( as mentioned in an earlier post upthread) Immigration increased after Covid but the Republicans have repeatedly refused to support the Democrats attempts for widespread reforms just so they could perpetuate their campaign tropes that immigration is worse under Biden.

Both parties have tried to slow down cross border crossings but I would rather support a party that does it fairly and humanely.

It doesn't seem to matter what the facts are about anything. If you ask the question 'do you acknowledge the facts?' people will reply 'yes' or 'no' or 'I don't know/care'. I have been surprised and pleased how many people on NSC have shifted away from the tories after years of tory tomfoolery. As for Trump.....we may think we have a dog in the fight but our dog is standing on the clifftop at Lands End looking wistfully and with futility, westwards.