taking the knee - what are your thoughts

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I can understand where this came from even if I don't agree with it.

When the players started taking the knee, Black lives matters was on the players shirts and slogans such as "Defund the Police" and "Kill the Bill" were - rightly or wrongly - associated with the movement and the accompanying riots which haven't helped the cause. I have no doubts a fair portion of the booers are old fashioned, British bulldog, no surrender, racists I think it would have been a better starting point if the message from the beginning was one of equality or some such (I work in IT, slogans aren't my forte). No-one could then go down this marxist route or debate what is trying to be achieved even though I'm sure some would try.

Whilst GS explained very eloquently why the players are doing it - and has convinced me they genuinely want to do it, rather than doing it because they have to which my cynical outlook to life was previously of the belief - the horse has bolted as those against it don't want to listen and have already made up their minds.

Fair points.

Where we are now, though, the players can either carry on with it, or not. If they decide to stop that's fine by me (even though the types to whom you allude will call it their victory). I would prefer they carry on with it, for reasons explained, of course, but I have always and only seen it as a guesture, signifying the existence of a community of equals (like offering a seat to someone who needs it, standing for the National Anthem, and other acts of respect).

As far as those who have made up their minds is concerned, they have either carefully weighed up the landscape but made false inferences, or they are racists. I am not sure that having made up their mind they were ever going to change. My guess is that in the 1970s they would account for 80% of the population. Today it is less. And so it goes; societal attitudes change as the dinosaurs die out and are replaced by younger and different minds.

So I'm not worried about minds made up. I also think there is a place for ostracising those whose attitudes are foolish or odious. Those infuriated by the sight of players taking the knee can stay infuriated as far as I'm concerned, and I hope and expect to see close up camera work on the booers next time England play.

All the best

 

[Guinness Boy]

So there are favours on here then? who would have guessed.

Some people contribute more positively to the community than others.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Some people contribute more positively to the community than others.

Got it, 29,000 + posts mean you can abuse others.

I would actually suggest my posts are positive in nature and more thought orientated than some, with a touch of bantz thrown in for good fun.

 

[cunning fergus]

quelle surprise....

[tweet]1401970898194870273[/tweet]

It’s confusing, yesterday the Culture MP gets slated for interfering with ECB approach to Ollie Robinson, today the PM gets slated for not getting involved in FA stance on taking the knee (a gesture now famously supported by Starmer).

If ever there was a reason to keep politics out of sport here it is.

 

[Randy McNob]

It’s confusing, yesterday the Culture MP gets slated for interfering with ECB approach to Ollie Robinson, today the PM gets slated for not getting involved in FA stance on taking the knee (a gesture now famously supported by Starmer).

If ever there was a reason to keep politics out of sport here it is.

As with most subjects I think Boris doesn't give a stuff, his main focus is to keep the divided line.

 

[cunning fergus]

Southgate has made it very clear why the team are taking the knee. Nothing to do with defunding the police, Marxism, or George Floyd's past actions. It's a gesture with an inarguably positive aim, ineffective as it may be.

Yes, it's performative and needs to be a prelude to praxis. However, the onus isn't on footballers to cure society's ills. What they can do is use their position to highlight problems, as they're trying to do. No doubt many of them are involved in charity and community work too. Could some of them to more? Probably. So could I.

Like I said before, I don't have the answers. But I'm pretty sure booing anti-racist acts isn't one of them.

As I said, I absolutely get it, the FA, Gareth and the squad want to carry on with a gesture associated with defunding the police, Marxism and George Floyd’s death, whilst stating that none of that is connected to them when they make that gesture. It’s an incomprehensible stance to me.

Nonetheless, we are at the stage where the court of public opinion (i.e. England football fans at Wembley) will determine if they agree with them.

The FA are clearly not convinced they will win the argument, as it now appears they will encourage the crowd via videos pre kick off to chant “kick it out” or “England” when the players take the knee.

If this move by the FA to the potential of dissent by England fans of England players taking the knee isn’t indicative of an utter self inflicted mess then I don’t know what is.

All of this could have been avoided by taking any other route whereby players could make a gesture completely unconnected to defunding the police, Marxism and George Floyd.

Whatever, they better make it out the group...........

 

[Lever]

‘Why should I support violence?’ Answering the objections to taking a knee

https://theathletic.com/2244447/2021/06/03/taking-knee-football-racism-violence-marxism-blm/

 

[cunning fergus]

As with most subjects I think Boris doesn't give a stuff, his main focus is to keep the divided line.

On the contrary, Boris must have seen how popular Keir and Angela became across the country when they took the knee in support of BLM.

He hasn’t taken a side, if I understand it, he has indicated that players right to expression should be respected. Whilst that’s hardly a green light to boo, if the players have a right to express their view in a gesture with political connotations, the fans have the same right to express their view to the contrary.

There is of course a clear way to navigate through this.............that decision is with the FA.

 

[cunning fergus]

‘Why should I support violence?’ Answering the objections to taking a knee

https://theathletic.com/2244447/2021/06/03/taking-knee-football-racism-violence-marxism-blm/

This article does not explain why BLM movement protests, inspired by events in the US are necessary at sporting events in England. The article makes a number of references to the struggles Martin Luther King’s civil right movements had in the US but even his murder did not affect the English football calendar in 1968.

So why now, and why just England, and why predominantly football?

If the post Trump US identity politics of America is what we want in the U.K. then we will import their far longer and deeper troubles in race relations. This article merely confirms what many people fear, people willing to let football act as a lightening rod for division.

There was one bit I agreed with though.........”Protests are meant to be inconvenient”. Quite.

 

[Lever]

This article does not explain why BLM movement protests, inspired by events in the US are necessary at sporting events in England. The article makes a number of references to the struggles Martin Luther King’s civil right movements had in the US but even his murder did not affect the English football calendar in 1968.

So why now, and why just England, and why predominantly football?

If the post Trump US identity politics of America is what we want in the U.K. then we will import their far longer and deeper troubles in race relations. This article merely confirms what many people fear, people willing to let football act as a lightening rod for division.

There was one bit I agreed with though.........”Protests are meant to be inconvenient”. Quite.

Some reasonable comment here and I offer a couple of points that you may (or may not) feel address them....

I am not convinced these protests are exclusively linked to BLM or inspired only by events in the US. Anger over statues to slave owners, historical (and more contemporary), racist comments at football matches (like ones I heard aimed at Bong when I watched Albion played Burnley a couple of seasons ago), the fact that black people are three times more likely to be arrested than white people. The list goes on. Why football? Perhaps because it is the most popular National sport with the highest viewing figures?
I don't really understand what you mean by 'people willing to let football act as a lightning rod for division'. I think the ultimate aim is to restore equality and end division (whether recognised by all or not).

Regards 'inconvenience', I think that in comparison with what many black people have endured over the years, it's a minor matter to put up with and keeps the subject on the agenda....

 

[Baker lite]

As I said, I absolutely get it, the FA, Gareth and the squad want to carry on with a gesture associated with defunding the police, Marxism and George Floyd’s death, whilst stating that none of that is connected to them when they make that gesture. It’s an incomprehensible stance to me.

Nonetheless, we are at the stage where the court of public opinion (i.e. England football fans at Wembley) will determine if they agree with them.

The FA are clearly not convinced they will win the argument, as it now appears they will encourage the crowd via videos pre kick off to chant “kick it out” or “England” when the players take the knee.

If this move by the FA to the potential of dissent by England fans of England players taking the knee isn’t indicative of an utter self inflicted mess then I don’t know what is.

All of this could have been avoided by taking any other route whereby players could make a gesture completely unconnected to defunding the police, Marxism and George Floyd.

Whatever, they better make it out the group...........

The kick it out campaign and the show racism the red card campaign were both excellent, I really don’t understand why the FA have got behind a campaign like BLM.. a global movement that wants to defund the police..The FA are really getting themselves in a bit of pickle here.
Not for me Clive. I’ll just carry on supporting Kick it out and show racism the red card..I won’t be advocating career criminals and thugs that desecrate war memorials.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[birthofanorange]

BLM.. a global movement that wants to defund the police..I won’t be advocating career criminals and thugs that desecrate war memorials.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Bakero]

As I said, I absolutely get it, the FA, Gareth and the squad want to carry on with a gesture associated with defunding the police, Marxism and George Floyd’s death, whilst stating that none of that is connected to them when they make that gesture. It’s an incomprehensible stance to me.

Nonetheless, we are at the stage where the court of public opinion (i.e. England football fans at Wembley) will determine if they agree with them.

The FA are clearly not convinced they will win the argument, as it now appears they will encourage the crowd via videos pre kick off to chant “kick it out” or “England” when the players take the knee.

If this move by the FA to the potential of dissent by England fans of England players taking the knee isn’t indicative of an utter self inflicted mess then I don’t know what is.

All of this could have been avoided by taking any other route whereby players could make a gesture completely unconnected to defunding the police, Marxism and George Floyd.

Whatever, they better make it out the group...........

As far as I can see you and your fellow travellers are the only ones banging on about Marxism and defunding the police.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Interesting article that makes some good points ...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-england-team-doesn-t-get-about-taking-the-knee-

My view .. any symbolic gesture hoping to promote and advance a worthy cause is most effective when it unites as many people as possible and has a positive impact. 'Taking the Knee' fails on both counts. Whatever the hoped for intentions It's clearly divided opinion, a minority boo (for whatever reason), many more think it's now run its course and some think it should continue. Continuous repetition also diminishes the impact, how would we feel about having a minutes silence after every game, wearing a poppy every week etc? Then there are the moronic arguments about keeping it going just to piss off the 'Gammon'/Racists which is as helpful as me suggesting people should boo just to piss off the Woke/Guardianistas. Unfortunately, there is no easy exit strategy as the extreme elements on both sides dig in, call each other names and the football authorities/players can't be seen to give in to the 'racists*' Hopefully, a solution/climb down can be found before we get back to full stadiums or there could be some public order issues at grounds next season.







*Anyone who doesn't support Taking the Knee

 

[The Clamp]

 

[birthofanorange]

View attachment 137481

Funny to watch, isn't it?

 

[Randy McNob]

Interesting article that makes some good points ...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-england-team-doesn-t-get-about-taking-the-knee-

My view .. any symbolic gesture hoping to promote and advance a worthy cause is most effective when it unites as many people as possible and has a positive impact. 'Taking the Knee' fails on both counts. Whatever the hoped for intentions It's clearly divided opinion, a minority boo (for whatever reason), many more think it's now run its course and some think it should continue. Continuous repetition also diminishes the impact, how would we feel about having a minutes silence after every game, wearing a poppy every week etc? Then there are the moronic arguments about keeping it going just to piss off the 'Gammon'/Racists which is as helpful as me suggesting people should boo just to piss off the Woke/Guardianistas. Unfortunately, there is no easy exit strategy as the extreme elements on both sides dig in, call each other names and the football authorities/players can't be seen to give in to the 'racists*' Hopefully, a solution/climb down can be found before we get back to full stadiums or there could be some public order issues at grounds next season.


*Anyone who doesn't support Taking the Knee

I agree, a good article and I agree alot the points made

We could also agree I suppose, if opinions on subjects are roughly split down the middle we shouldn't continue just to satisfy one side, it only works if we are unified in our support and it benefits everyone, and as you alluded to, doing it purely to annoy the other side is also pointless. Much to learn

 

[birthofanorange]

Interesting article that makes some good points ...


My view ... there could be some public order issues at grounds next season.

Gosh, I bet there's a few on here that will be creaming themselves when they read that.

 

[Pretty Plnk Fairy]

Left is bad and marxist

Right is just a bit of bantz FACT




Regards

DF

 

[cunning fergus]

As far as I can see you and your fellow travellers are the only ones banging on about Marxism and defunding the police.

More fake news there......

BBC Breakfast (@BBCBreakfast) Tweeted: Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer tells #BBCBreakfast it’s "a shame" the sentiment behind the Black Lives Matter movement is getting “tangled up with these organisational issues" and it’s "nonsense" to call to ‘Defund the Police’. https://t.co/7ydITWGZWN
https://twitter.com/BBCBreakfast/status/1277556165040148485?s=20

This is Keir ‘take the knee’ Starmer backtracking on his solidarity with the BLM movement specifically on its objective to “defund the police”. Maybe “defund the police” is what the BLM movement wants to do in the US, maybe BLM U.K. don’t want to defund the U.K. police. I don’t know?

It doesn’t matter though, because after last year for many many people who watched the news taking the knee is connected to a movement that advocates defund the police.

One can only wonder what BLM activist Sacha Johnson and her family will think about the defund the police message if she pulls through........