[Football] Sutton United Ladies put their head above the parapet

[m20gull]

Yep. If you have an unfair advantage if you are biologically male (the 'beneficiary' of the testosterone burst during puberty) then it isn't fair to be allowed to compete with women. End of discussion.

Unfortunately some folk may be better versed in civil rights than in biology, advocating for impractical equality. But.....apart from the footballer herself, is there really a 'lobby' promoting the idea that trans women should be afforded all the sporting rights available to biological women? One with impact and traction?

Nah. There isn't. This this a silly thread and the OP really needs to give this sort of thing a rest.

Of course there will be some people out there accusing folk of being transphobic for not backing the goalie. Just as there were people out there accusing The Albion of racism when we sacked Chris Hughton.

Such opinions don't matter, and one reacts 'noisily' to them only if one has an axe to grind oneself (that axe being transphobia and racism, respectively; "look at 'those' people, playing the gender/race card").

If there isn't a lobby it certainly feels like it. From the IOC's work on allowing sports to prioritise fairness, the US government's changes to Title IX, and the Australian legislation that allows the Flying Bats to be successful it must feel like a lobby to female athletes. Governing bodies that resist changes have to work very hard.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Just because the link in the OP is a Mail article, I don't think it should just be dismissed. And it certainly isn't a 'mini culture war controversy'. Saying that just dismisses the legitimate concerns of women in sport.

Someone else who supports this view is Sonia Sodha - who writes for the Guardian/Observer and is someone whose opinion's I respect.

Another clear example of the failure of international sports bodies to protect women's sport.

I take back my comment that this won't run (and run).

However I remain disturbed by the apparent glee in the original post.

A quick bit of research shows that there is no global (or even national) position on the role of biological males and intersex individuals in women's sport. However most sporting bodies, who are therefore free to make their own rules, do not support anything other than women's competition being restricted to biological women.

Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is of course a kerfuffle whenever a biological male pops up in women's sport, like now with this goalie. Unfortunately this is generally whipped up into a storm (in a teacup) by the militant anti-LGBT 'movement' which, in the US, is noisily setting the agenda.

2020s anti-LGBT movement in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These people are mainly 'concerned' with the 'safety' of women, promoting the idea that what this is really about is great big hairy men in dresses flopping out their old chap and sharing showers with teenage female athletes.

 

[Curious Orange]

2020s anti-LGBT movement in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These people are mainly 'concerned' with the 'safety' of women, promoting the idea that what this is really about is great big hairy men in dresses flopping out their old chap and sharing showers with teenage female athletes.

Like Lia Thomas?

 

[LamieRobertson]

The trans woman 6 ft keeper plays for Sutton Utd and was signed by Sutton's new manager who is a trans woman ex ref with no experience in woman's football. Article suggests that it was a number of Sutton's own players that didn't want to play. It also states that the previous keeper was moved on when the new keeper was signed. Maybe the other woman see this as just a start. And maybe they think that women's football should just be for woman that haven't gone through male puberty and the physical advantages that gives.

Well put…and i totally agree ..its quite simple really.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

If there isn't a lobby it certainly feels like it. From the IOC's work on allowing sports to prioritise fairness, the US government's changes to Title IX, and the Australian legislation that allows the Flying Bats to be successful it must feel like a lobby to female athletes. Governing bodies that resist changes have to work very hard.

I said 'with impact and traction'.

You support your position that there is a lobby (which I would note only if it has influence and traction) by citing Title IX and flying bats, two things I have never heard of and would imagine most other people reading this thread have ever heard of.

There is a lobby for anything and everything. For it to matter it needs to have impact and traction. There is no suggestion whatsoever that biological males will soon be competing in most or all of women's sport. Anyone pushing for this lacks impact and traction.

Instead it seems that different sporting bodies are largely making decisions on reasonable consideration.

And if the IOC is prioritizing fairness, that's great. That doesn't mean it is lobbying to allow biological men to compete in all women's sport.

There is in fact some nuance in this issue, and the nuance seems to be influencing decisions appropriately, by and large. People may challenge decisions, but that is reasonable due process.

 

[Hamilton]

Nobody is 'born into the wrong body'. Your body is what you are born with, what you live with, and what you'll die with, irrespective of how you feel about it, present it, or surgically change it.

That is simply not true. It may be an over-simplification but people do feel distress at a born gender identity that is at total odds with who they feel and know they are. These people rightly deserve medical and psychological support as they decide what transition, if any, they wish to make. You may with to use another phrase, but it's not possible to deny that this state does not exist.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Like Lia Thomas?

Please use more words so I can understand the point you are trying to make.

Lia Thomas, transgender, is not allowed to compete in women's sport (swimming), which seems fair to me.

 

[Eeyore]

This is an issue which is far too complex for another drop and run post in NSC. I don't have a fixed opinion on it, which I think is the best starting point on this above many subjects.

 

[Hamilton]

Does an average size male goalkeeper become an average size female goalkeeper after taking hormone therapy?

The question about whether men and women should have separate biological categories is easy. Answer either yes, keep things separate because women aren't as strong as men; or no, abolish the whole principle of women's sport. The answer is obviously yes (one would hope). A mishmash where men can choose either category is pointless.

This is not about men choosing either category.

If you're prepared to have your cocked lopped off, your vagina packed, and go through years of treatment to adjust the balance in your body just to play in goal for Sutton United, then fair play to you. I don't that is HER driver.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Well put…and i totally agree ..its quite simple really.

In this instance, this is correct.

 

[LamieRobertson]

I take back my comment that this won't run (and run).

However I remain disturbed by the apparent glee in the original post.

A quick bit of research shows that there is no global (or even national) position on the role of biological males and intersex individuals in women's sport. However most sporting bodies, who are therefore free to make their own rules, do not support anything other than women's competition being restricted to biological women.

Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is of course a kerfuffle whenever a biological male pops up in women's sport, like now with this goalie. Unfortunately this is generally whipped up into a storm (in a teacup) by the militant anti-LGBT 'movement' which, in the US, is noisily setting the agenda.

2020s anti-LGBT movement in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These people are mainly 'concerned' with the 'safety' of women, promoting the idea that what this is really about is great big hairy men in dresses flopping out their old chap and sharing showers with teenage female athletes.

That may be the case but it takes two to tango and there are activists on both sides.

Personally i am glad there are organisations like the LGB Alliance who challenge some of the ideology spouted by the woke brigade.

Whatever the feelings and arguments are …. i hope that the person involved is looked after with the spotlight being shone on them.

 

[Hamilton]

In the words of Chris Sutton. You're better than that sir.

In the words of Robbie Savage, "No he is not."

 

[nwgull]

said the 6 foot goalie

With exceptionally large hands.

 

[Curious Orange]

That is simply not true. It may be an over-simplification but people do feel distress at a born gender identity that is at total odds with who they feel and know they are. These people rightly deserve medical and psychological support as they decide what transition, if any, they wish to make. You may with to use another phrase, but it's not possible to deny that this state does not exist.

It is true that people have these mental health issues, but 'being born into the wrong body' is an idea not a reality. You are absolutely correct that these people deserve unbiased and non-judgemental psychological support, and medical support if absolutely necessary.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That may be the case but it takes two to tango and there are activists on both sides.

Personally i am glad there are organisations like the LGB Alliance who challenge some of the ideology spouted by the woke brigade.

Whatever the feelings are …. i hope that the person involved is looked after with the spotlight being shone on them.

I must admit that I am apparently not as interested in all this as you, but would be interested in reading your research on 'LGB alliance' and this 'woke brigade', both of which I am unfamiliar.

Do you have a link to a synopsis?

 

[LamieRobertson]

I must admit that I am apparently not as interested in all this as you, but would be interested in reading your research on 'LGB alliance' and this 'woke brigade', both of which I am unfamiliar.

Do you have a link to a synopsis?

Lol…..synopsis…..links…thats a bit disingenuous of you Harry….i dont think i need to send you any info re the LGB Alliance ..its all out there and you know that

 

[Curious Orange]

Please use more words so I can understand the point you are trying to make.

Lia Thomas, transgender, is not allowed to compete in women's sport (swimming), which seems fair to me.

Apologies HWT, I probably should have elaborated, but thought this particular story was fairly well known. One of the complaints made about Lia Thomas when she was competing in the women's category was that she was a fully intact male changing in the female changing rooms.

 

[sparkie]

Hold on, does that Crawley women who celebrated O’Rileys injury play for this team too?!

I actually thought this was going to be a thread about a statement Sutton United had made about that.

 

[Questions]

Gents (and Ladies) reading some of the responses are we not allowed to have a debate now? (How long before Sir Keir shuts down NSC, after he’s banned fags in beer gardens? )


It came up on my feed this morning, and many on here know boxing is also another sport I love and what went on in Paris was not only farcical but relevant to this subject.

Aside from their brief dalliance with the EFL, Sutton United are one of the most respected non league football clubs in the country, so for this issue to arrive at their door, it clearly will have people talking about (if we’re allowed to )

Some of those 80’s birds we knocked around with were decent boxers.

 

[Hamilton]

This is so rare that it should be discussed in depth by experts at some kind of tribunal.

Can you name an example where this has happened, in any professional sport?

Yes, it has been discussed in detailed by the armed forces who need to deter mine the impact on gender treatment and transition for those wishing to fight on the frontline. They have looked at how this affects muscle mass. Some studies (SOME) show differing results as to when people lose muscle mass as the body changes, but all show that there is an equalling of muscle mass over time. The science is there, but the timelines may not be conclusive.

The bigger question is how do we come to accept this culturally and what changes do we make to welcome all types of people and all genders, no matter what your biological sex was (if you had one) at birth.

Essentially, we are all being asked to go through a change, and people hate change - even when it's the right thing to do.