Southern Rail STRIKE details

[Deadly Danson]

now heres a question, why arent the guard and driver teamed?

And it is a good question - quite often at the weekend we are. I don't really have a good answer other than it's the mishmash of who signs what route, some doo work, drivers also having to move empty coaches around, staff from different depots doing different parts of jobs etc but if GTR were serious about solving the problem it would be very easy to work out - a lot easier than producing this shambles anyway.

 

[wakeytom]

Can I ask why you are both ignoring my post above about the underground, not on a wind up here I just dont see the difference but get a feeling that you are ignoring as it doesnt help your argument.

Just for the record I am not in favour of people losing jobs

 

[Deadly Danson]

Can I ask why you are both ignoring my post above about the underground, not on a wind up here I just dont see the difference but get a feeling that you are ignoring as it doesnt help your argument.

Just for the record I am not in favour of people losing jobs

Sorry, the problem is we have been having these arguments on the other threads for months but now it affects football fans the same questions are coming round again (which I guess supports the RMT decision to strike this week - a whole new section of the population is becoming aware of the issues). In short, the underground is generally not affected by issues such as sunlight and weather affecting cameras etc (although obviously some is overground), the distance between stations isn't far so if there is a problem the driver can simply drive for a minute to investigate or evacuate rather than be stuck in the middle of nowhere and there are more station staff around to assist. But there have been issues with trap and drag I believe and I would argue that it isn't particularly safe (assaults are at a record high) anyway but I concede that it does function effectively. If you want further discourse on this it's way back in one of the earlier pages on this thread if you have the energy to sift through it all (which i don't!).

 

[wakeytom]

Sorry, the problem is we have been having these arguments on the other threads for months but now it affects football fans the same questions are coming round again (which I guess supports the RMT decision to strike this week - a whole new section of the population is becoming aware of the issues). In short, the underground is generally not affected by issues such as sunlight and weather affecting cameras etc (although obviously some is overground), the distance between stations isn't far so if there is a problem the driver can simply drive for a minute to investigate or evacuate rather than be stuck in the middle of nowhere and there are more station staff around to assist. But there have been issues with trap and drag I believe and I would argue that it isn't particularly safe (assaults are at a record high) anyway but I concede that it does function effectively. If you want further discourse on this it's way back in one of the earlier pages on this thread if you have the energy to sift through it all (which i don't!).

Thank you

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

There's no doubt there's fault on both sides. Compromise is needed, yet both sides look to me to be totally entrenched and pig headed. I watched the news this morning and was completely unimpressed with the Scottish bearded guy from the RMT and also the guy from the management.

Both sides don't appear to see or care how they are affecting people's lives, jobs, careers, families, families and kids.

Get round the table and sort it out.

 

[Doc Lynam]

Safety again being hi lighted by a passengers death today.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Safety again being hi lighted by a passengers death today.

How would having a conductor stop an idiot sticking his head out the window ?

 

[clapham_gull]

As much as I feel sorry for those who absolutely rely on it (luckily I don't but it's doubled by journey time into work) - I just pray the "franchise" is given to someone else and this action helps do that.

I say franchise because it isn't really. Just look it up. It's a "management contract". The company get a guaranteed figure and all the rail revenue goes to the Government. I understand the Government also pay any refunds ?

This was agreed at the time because what with the cross rail and London Bridge work the franchise was deemed risky,

Well the operators got one with no risk as far as I can see but importantly the relationship between the customer and supplier has been effectively broken. Under such circumstances it would appear that the operator can only make more money by cutting costs.

I'm not 100% sold on the safety argument but as a daily rail traveller on packed trains - I'd personally prefer someone else than the driver looking after the doors. There is something re-assuring about that, rather than someone with what looks like a table tennis bat waving down the train.

I feel so sorry for the Southern staff on platforms who I see abused daily because there seems an ineffective means of communicating. Why haven't they got tablets with train timetable apps ?

They've even got them in Toolstation to pick the products

 

[Springal]

I drove Worthing to Dorking today. 35min nice easy drive. Parked up at the station no problem. Trains every 10mins with choice of Waterloo or Victoria.

Best of all, the ticket, parking and petrol all came in about 2/3 of the cost of my West Worthing ticket !

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

Sorry conductors but I have zero sympathy now. After MONTHS of utter ****wittery from Govia and the Government you ****ing pull a stunt like this.

You haven't had to face the misery day in and day out like us passengers. You know the ones you are supposed to service.

Bad PR, utterly apalling timing.

 

[lost in london]

Three journeys in strike week and better than normal - Thameslink is running fine. I bet a lot of people aren't aware that Thameslink is seemingly unaffected, despite being owned by the same company.

Also, big thumbs up for the new 700 trains, never thought I would turn into a train geek, but they're lovely.

 

[kevo]

Three journeys in strike week and better than normal - Thameslink is running fine. I bet a lot of people aren't aware that Thameslink is seemingly unaffected, despite being owned by the same company.

Also, big thumbs up for the new 700 trains, never thought I would turn into a train geek, but they're lovely.

So does this mean it will be possible to get to and from London to Brighton on Friday using Thameslink?

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

So does this mean it will be possible to get to and from London to Brighton on Friday using Thameslink?

Yes go to Blackfriars.

 

[Ernest]

Here is a quick and easy summary to help people make their minds up about the rail dispute.
Not my own work I'm sorry to say!
The Southern Rail dispute for non railway people:
On the railways it's very easy to kill people. To avoid that we like to follow the safest operating procedures - Driver Only Operation (DOO)is safe, but not as safe as having a guard.
Basically the government have calculated that the increase in injury from DOO is a price worth paying for the reductions in costs. Which is fine as long as it's not you or your child that's killed / suffers life changing injuries.
Throw into the mix a government determined to smash the rail unions and rail unions determined to take them on, plus major engineering works and a generally VERY POOR operator and you have the current situation.
If you believe the cost savings from DOO will be passed on to you the passenger, support the govt.
If you think the savings will go to profits to the operators (in most cases nationalised train companies from Europe) support the unions.
If you think that corporate executive pay is a bigger scandal than decent paid jobs for ordinary people support the unions.

 

[WonderingSoton]

There's no doubt there's fault on both sides. Compromise is needed, yet both sides look to me to be totally entrenched and pig headed. I watched the news this morning and was completely unimpressed with the Scottish bearded guy from the RMT and also the guy from the management.

Both sides don't appear to see or care how they are affecting people's lives, jobs, careers, families, families and kids.

Get round the table and sort it out.

I get the feeling that passengers and commuters are an inconvenient distraction and obstacle in the ever so exciting fight the Union are enjoying with 'the nasty fat cats and government' (and visa versa most likely).

 

[dazzer6666]

Here is a quick and easy summary to help people make their minds up about the rail dispute.
Not my own work I'm sorry to say!
The Southern Rail dispute for non railway people:
On the railways it's very easy to kill people. To avoid that we like to follow the safest operating procedures - Driver Only Operation (DOO)is safe, but not as safe as having a guard.
Basically the government have calculated that the increase in injury from DOO is a price worth paying for the reductions in costs. Which is fine as long as it's not you or your child that's killed / suffers life changing injuries.
Throw into the mix a government determined to smash the rail unions and rail unions determined to take them on, plus major engineering works and a generally VERY POOR operator and you have the current situation.
If you believe the cost savings from DOO will be passed on to you the passenger, support the govt.
If you think the savings will go to profits to the operators (in most cases nationalised train companies from Europe) support the unions.
If you think that corporate executive pay is a bigger scandal than decent paid jobs for ordinary people support the unions.

Hardly a balanced/neutral view though is it.
You say DOO is safe ? I thought that was the main crux of the dispute
What are the stats on, say, injuries per mile travelled between DOO and non DOO ?
Not going to argue about a VERY POOR operator though. Think you're being kind. They're a shambles.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

To avoid that we like to follow the safest operating procedures - Driver Only Operation (DOO)is safe, but not as safe as having a guard.
Basically the government have calculated that the increase in injury from DOO is a price worth paying for the reductions in costs.

Would the unions like to detail the percentage increase in injuries on lines that have been switched to DOO just to back this claim up ?

 

[lost in london]

Here is a quick and easy summary to help people make their minds up about the rail dispute.
Not my own work I'm sorry to say!
The Southern Rail dispute for non railway people:
On the railways it's very easy to kill people. To avoid that we like to follow the safest operating procedures - Driver Only Operation (DOO)is safe, but not as safe as having a guard.
Basically the government have calculated that the increase in injury from DOO is a price worth paying for the reductions in costs. Which is fine as long as it's not you or your child that's killed / suffers life changing injuries.
Throw into the mix a government determined to smash the rail unions and rail unions determined to take them on, plus major engineering works and a generally VERY POOR operator and you have the current situation.
If you believe the cost savings from DOO will be passed on to you the passenger, support the govt.
If you think the savings will go to profits to the operators (in most cases nationalised train companies from Europe) support the unions.
If you think that corporate executive pay is a bigger scandal than decent paid jobs for ordinary people support the unions.

Very one sided scaremongering, surely you also need to add - If you believe that DOO currently operates on a number of lines safely and was introduced on those lines without any noticeable material objection from the unions and simply reflects modern railway practice, support the govt.

Genuine question - if DOO trains are more dangerous, where are the stats for people killed / injured by DOO trains?

 

[TheJasperCo]

Sorry conductors but I have zero sympathy now. After MONTHS of utter ****wittery from Govia and the Government you ****ing pull a stunt like this.

You haven't had to face the misery day in and day out like us passengers. You know the ones you are supposed to service.

Bad PR, utterly apalling timing.

I'm going to go against the grain here and agree with you. Both sides have the power to stop this farce at the drop of a hat. I don't give a crap about vested interests and staff cuts and deceit any more, I just want the trains running like they used to. Neither side is willing to compromise but the unions resorting to strike action (when they know management won't give a shit) is just heaping misery on commuters and people like myself who rely on the rail network. Disruption on this scale is something rarely seen in a developing country, or even France, and it's really starting to grate on my nerves now.

 

[beorhthelm]

Here is a quick and easy summary to help people make their minds up about the rail dispute.
Not my own work I'm sorry to say!
The Southern Rail dispute for non railway people:
On the railways it's very easy to kill people. To avoid that we like to follow the safest operating procedures - Driver Only Operation (DOO)is safe, but not as safe as having a guard.
Basically the government have calculated that the increase in injury from DOO is a price worth paying for the reductions in costs. Which is fine as long as it's not you or your child that's killed / suffers life changing injuries.
Throw into the mix a government determined to smash the rail unions and rail unions determined to take them on, plus major engineering works and a generally VERY POOR operator and you have the current situation.
If you believe the cost savings from DOO will be passed on to you the passenger, support the govt.
If you think the savings will go to profits to the operators (in most cases nationalised train companies from Europe) support the unions.
If you think that corporate executive pay is a bigger scandal than decent paid jobs for ordinary people support the unions.

the issue with this view is that there is no stated cost saving. there is on the other hand a massive investment in trains equiped to support DOO. there is also an improvment to services when there is minor disruptions, not requiring a guard to run the service, and improvments for passengers requiring information.

as i understand, the current offer from GTR is to guarantee second staff on all services except in exceptional circumstances to be agreed with the unions. the union isnt accepting this, they want 100% second staff no matter what. so a train cant leave say Victoria to pick up a conductor en-route in disruption, despite having all the technology to enable the driver to safely dispatch the train (not to mention the only likely stops would be staffed platforms). meanwhile, the DOO trains running GX and Thameslink services run without this problem, highlighting DOO is safe too.

i support the principle of having a second staff member on the train, when they strike for a whole week impacting hundreds of thousands of people for the sake of 350 people's change of role, i cannot support the union.