Southern Rail STRIKE details

[ROSM]

Am I missing something? Southern's DOO proposal still has a second person on board, other than in exceptional circumstances which I thought the union were invited to discuss and help define.

The business model for southern is based on being paid to run the franchise and all revenue goes to the government.

The way to.increase income therefore is to reduce costs. That means less staff. There is no guarantee on having a second person on board and the invite you referred to was withdrawn at arbitration

Also the will become revenue protection officers which means they don't sell tickets but will fine people for.not having a ticket. If you had a situation that often occurs of no ticket office and ticket machines failing the commuter is penalised

 

[Arthur]

So I don't think we can assume DOO trains are more efficient

I'm sure you are right. In an ideal world we'd have a member of staff in each carriage or better still at every door. Sadly it's not an ideal world though.

However a train running slightly late without a guard is much better than a train being cancelled because of no guard at all IMO.

 

[Deadly Danson]

Am I missing something? Southern's DOO proposal still has a second person on board, other than in exceptional circumstances which I thought the union were invited to discuss and help define.

Those exceptional circumstances will occur every single day, they will gradually be eroded until not having a guard becomes the norm. We have a set of similar conditions in place now for drivers which the company flout every single day - hence the drivers trying to strike due to their terms and conditions not being adhered to. This is why the company are so keen to keep these "exceptional circumstances" and why the RMT are so keen for a guarantee to have a guard on every train that currently has a guard. Both sides know exactly what the company's goal is - it's no secret to anyone otherwise why would they be so adamant on not negotiating on this? It's not even subtle - if the company really wanted to offer better service and keep an OBS on the train they would just have the driver and OBS/guard together all day.

 

[Bozza]

The business model for southern is based on being paid to run the franchise and all revenue goes to the government.

The way to.increase income therefore is to reduce costs. That means less staff. There is no guarantee on having a second person on board and the invite you referred to was withdrawn at arbitration

I'm not going to try and search it out now, but in the Commons Select Committee thing, SASTA did offer a guarantee no job losses for on-board staff for as long as they held the franchise. (They did point out they couldn't provide a guarantee beyond that, which is kinda obvious.)

I'm not suggesting for one minute that SASTA are modern day patron saints of transport, but neither are the union, as others have said. They also seem quite happy to completely **** over the travelling public for as long as it takes.

 

[Arthur]

The Conductor nips back, sorts the idiot out and resets the alarm whilst the train doesn't stop.

Why can't an on board supervisor do the same thing? He wouldn't even have to worry about opening the doors if they were close to pulling into a station. Win/win surely??

 

[ROSM]

If it was slightly late then okay. Buy it's the knock on it causes I think will be the problem.

Given I've been on a platform next to a driver and guard when the train was cancelled due to there being no guard available, I'm sceptical as to whether not having guards will improve things. It just removes one possible excuse for a delay

 

[Ernest]

Why can't an on board supervisor do the same thing? He wouldn't even have to worry about opening the doors if they were close to pulling into a station. Win/win surely??

Because they're not being trained to do so

 

[ROSM]

I'm not going to try and search it out now, but in the Commons Select Committee thing, SASTA did offer a guarantee no job losses for on-board staff for as long as they held the franchise. (They did point out they couldn't provide a guarantee beyond that, which is kinda obvious.)

I'm not suggesting for one minute that SASTA are modern day patron saints of transport, but neither are the union, as others have said. They also seem quite happy to completely **** over the travelling public for as long as it takes.

Southern currently have c30% gap in the number of guards between what they have and what the franchise requires.

As one of the travelling public who is being pissed on i think the blame is higher than both union and southern. It's down to an unworkable franchise model

 

[Bozza]

Those exceptional circumstances will occur every single day, they will gradually be eroded until not having a guard becomes the norm. We have a set of similar conditions in place now for drivers which the company flout every single day - hence the drivers trying to strike due to their terms and conditions not being adhered to. This is why the company are so keen to keep these "exceptional circumstances" and why the RMT are so keen for a guarantee to have a guard on every train that currently has a guard. Both sides know exactly what the company's goal is - it's no secret to anyone otherwise why would they be so adamant on not negotiating on this? It's not even subtle - if the company really wanted to offer better service and keep an OBS on the train they would just have the driver and OBS/guard together all day.

So you keep saying.

And as I and others have said: if commuters are sitting on a train at London Bridge waiting to get home to see their kids before they go to bed and you offered them a choice of a delayed/cancelled train "due to shortage of train staff" or setting off, most will vote for leaving.

And, of course, we then come back to the fact that DOO was implemented elsewhere with no sniff of a protest. Yes, I know you've tried to explain this one as well, but not in a way that's going to convince anyone.

They are boring circular arguments. What's not boring is how people are being ****ed over by both sides involved in this. I'll give some credit to the union however, as they do seem to have finally included "job losses" in their concerns when, previously, they were persisting with just safety, publicly at least.

 

[Arthur]

Because they're not being trained to do so

They aren't being trained to reset an alarm?? Right ok then!

 

[Deadly Danson]

So you keep saying.

And as I and others have said: if commuters are sitting on a train at London Bridge waiting to get home to see their kids before they go to bed and you offered them a choice of a delayed/cancelled train "due to shortage of train staff" or setting off, most will vote for leaving.

.

Of course, as would everyone. But if you a) employ enough staff as a responsible company should and b) keep the driver and guard together all day then you won't have this problem. Then everyone wins.

 

[ROSM]

They aren't being trained to reset an alarm?? Right ok then!

That's kind of true. The health and safety executive input via previous incidents to a specification of the skillset required to do this. To give those skills means in effect they have to be higher trained than a revenue protection officer which means more pay and therefore don't give the savings needed

 

[The Albion Roar]

I'm not going to try and search it out now, but in the Commons Select Committee thing, SASTA did offer a guarantee no job losses for on-board staff for as long as they held the franchise. (They did point out they couldn't provide a guarantee beyond that, which is kinda obvious.)

They did. The promised to keep the jobs until the end of their franchise (2021).

But then again, they promised to employ enough staff to run a reasonably coherent service, and have now gone back on that. The emergency timetable, say Southern, means that the promised 490 staff (in total, not new) are no longer needed.

If the government via the DfT could promise retention of those jobs beyond the current franchise lifetime, there may be some headway. But they're not doing so.

 

[pasty]

They are booked on a diagram so they go to maintenance at the scheduled time , it's not as easy as it looks. The problem is that the idiots who book the carriage diagrams as well as the train crew diagrams in an effort to save money have made them so tight that when there is disruption it all goes tits up for a long time.

An example for you the first train to London from the West Coast (Hove dep 0557) arrives at Victoria at 0658 and then forms the 0710 to East Grinstead arriving at 0801 and makes the 0817 back up to London Bridge. So a problem at Worthing at 0530 could still be having an effect at East Grinstead at 0830.

I'm not buying that for the example I gave. If the two sets of carriages I mentioned had simply been swapped round they would have both ended up in Brighton very close to the time they should have been there anyway had they not been swapped round. In fact, by NOT swapping them, the problem was exacerbated, as the 18:15 did not arrive in Brighton until around the time the 18:30 would have arrived, ergo the 18:30 (I assume) must have arrived late as well.

 

[Ernest]

I'm not buying that for the example I gave. If the two sets of carriages I mentioned had simply been swapped round they would have both ended up in Brighton very close to the time they should have been there anyway had they not been swapped round. In fact, by NOT swapping them, the problem was exacerbated, as the 18:15 did not arrive in Brighton until around the time the 18:30 would have arrived, ergo the 18:30 (I assume) must have arrived late as well.

You better tell the people who run the job then and MAKE them change it

 

[Arthur]

That's kind of true. The health and safety executive input via previous incidents to a specification of the skillset required to do this. To give those skills means in effect they have to be higher trained than a revenue protection officer which means more pay and therefore don't give the savings needed

But Southern have said no one will lose their jobs, nor will they take a pay cut so surely the guards are already trained to that level and therefore command the higher salary so existing guards will still be able to do this without stopping the trains or having to worry about opening the doors so as I said win win.

Out of interest what happened to the person who was having a sly fag on your service? I assume had their been an on board supervisor or even a guard that they may well have caught the "scrote" (as I believe you called s/he) and therefore would have called the law to nick said person so you would have got held up at the next station until the local constabulary arrived?

 

[ROSM]

But Southern have said no one will lose their jobs, nor will they take a pay cut so surely the guards are already trained to that level and therefore command the higher salary so existing guards will still be able to do this without stopping the trains or having to worry about opening the doors so as I said win win.

Out of interest what happened to the person who was having a sly fag on your service? I assume had their been an on board supervisor or even a guard that they may well have caught the "scrote" (as I believe you called s/he) and therefore would have called the law to nick said person so you would have got held up at the next station until the local constabulary arrived?

The individual had left the toilet once the alarm sounded and so all that was done was the sensor was reset and the driver continued onwards from our resting spot in North /mid Sussex.

Interesting thought about how a driver only would have retained him.until the next station without on-board support....

As for the pay/ retention of staff, that makes a number of assumptions that I don't have the answer to;

- What happens with the existing 400+ vacancies
- will the ex guards lose their skillset if not refresher trained
- Do you trust southern to keep their word

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

But Southern have said no one will lose their jobs, nor will they take a pay cut so surely the guards are already trained to that level and therefore command the higher salary so existing guards will still be able to do this without stopping the trains or having to worry about opening the doors so as I said win win.

I was at Legal & General over in Hove when the permies jobs all got outsourced to the TATA corporation of India. Under the terms of TUPE, no-one lost their jobs or took a pay cut. For a year. Surprise, surprise, as soon as that year was up, the outsourced permies were all invited to re-apply for their own jobs. Their applications were overwhelmingly unsuccessful and they were replaced by far cheaper alternatives from offshore. IMHO the union are completely correct in mistrusting Southern. The end game will be for Southern to lose ALL those jobs.

 

[Bozza]

Hypothetical question: if SASTA proposed a change that involved job losses but irrefutably provided a service enhancement to customers, would the union:

a) Accept it - they want the best for the customers after all.
b) Reject it, protest and strike etc due to the job losses required.

 

[Arthur]

I was at Legal & General over in Hove when the permies jobs all got outsourced to the TATA corporation of India. Under the terms of TUPE, no-one lost their jobs or took a pay cut. For a year. Surprise, surprise, as soon as that year was up, the outsourced permies were all invited to re-apply for their own jobs. Their applications were overwhelmingly unsuccessful and they were replaced by far cheaper alternatives from offshore. IMHO the union are completely correct in mistrusting Southern. The end game will be for Southern to lose ALL those jobs.

I don't doubt that to be the case. And I'd have a lot more time for the union if they came out and said that was the issue rather than this safety nonsense. That said unfortunately it's the way of the world currently. There is no such thing as a job for life any more. M&S announced 500 job loses from their HQ this week, I've not heard of any planed strikes of M&S staff.

- What happens with the existing 400+ vacancies

They get filled with people who are unable to press a button to reset an alarm I assume? The consumer is still no worse off.

- will the ex guards lose their skillset if not refresher trained

What are they going to be retrained to do? If they are going into revenue protection surely they do that already (well are supposed to but don't on Southern)?

- Do you trust southern to keep their word

Well no, but this is where the government need to step in and make sure they do stick to their word. Why couldn't Southern stick conductors on a contract until the end of their franchise? If they break it then they have to pay up the employee to the end of the contract term.