Solar Panels

[Uncle C]

On the old tariff some of our installs were seeing a return of 16% on investment. Try getting that from any bank.....
Panels are guaranteed for the life of the scheme so theres no risk involved either.
If you want to know more PM me
Paul

Why not distort the truth out of all recognition. Its beginning to sound more like double glazing sales talk.

On the old tariff some of our installs were seeing a return of 16% on investment. Try getting that from any bank. Its what the returns are now which is most relevant. At the end of the period you have a roof full of obsolete panels that you need to pay good money to have removed. In a bank for instance you still have your capital investment in full

Panels are guaranteed for the life of the scheme so theres no risk involved either. This is an absolute con trick as it infers the guarantee offers a defective panel replacement completely free of charge. What it means is you have to pay someone to inspect the system, to get an OK from the panel manufacturer (its not the installer that guarantees them) then you have to pay to have the panel removed and a new one put in. This of course will include costly scaffolding, and BTW if any panel goes out the system will barely work at all, so you cant just ignore it.
Try asking as well if other parts of the system such as the expensive DC to AC inverter are covered for 25 years - of course they're not.
If you want to know more, pm me.
Chris

 

[beorhthelm]

It could also make it far more difficult to sell your home

never understood why this would be an issue, if i could have brought a house with cheaper electricity or FIT payments, would be great.

Not sure where you got a figure of 15 years for a payback.

from those selling them? thats the sort of figure i recall being advertised.

If it has paid for itself after 5/6 years then you start to make more money upto the end of the 25 year contract. According to the figures quoted to us, over 25 years the system should generate savings/income of £50k. And where have you come up with the equipment doesn't last that long.

5 years i wonder where you got your information from. i would have certainly have gone for that and so would my Dad. we've both independantly decided its just not worth it, considering the loss of flexibility of cash, whcih on average would give you 4-5%, easily doubling over the 25 years. i wonder how much you got your system for, because i can see a much shorter return period paying for the panels and Grid TIE yourself (but then no authorised FIT). cheapest install i found was just under 9k, though you can buy components for 2KW system for £6.5k if you can find someone to sign it off.

 

[Uncle C]

never understood why this would be an issue, if i could have brought a house with cheaper electricity or FIT payments, would be great.

Obsolete PV panels will be the new stone cladding.

 

[Uncle C]

my mum & Dad had them fitted, apart from making the house look bloody ugly, they have saved them about 40% off of their bills

Was that over the course of a full year, or over last summer when the sun was bright and electric bills at their lowest.

 

[Deleted member 18477]

They make houses look disgusting!!

 

[8ace]

They make houses look disgusting!!

Indeed, many of us complained about some old harridan trying to disfigure Lewes by erecting some.

 

[Uncle C]

They make houses look disgusting!!

If you think they look bad now, just picture it in 25 yrs time.

Look at the development of most technologies such as TV and computers over a 25 year period, then picture where PV panels will be in 25 years. At the moment it requires about 1.6sm of panel to make less than 200watts, so 4KW systems swamp most roofs. In the future panels will be smaller, more efficient and perhaps even with a bit of style to help them blend in.
A system installed today will be totally obsolete and will detract from the selling price of a house much like stone cladding did.

 

[slinky]

Was that over the course of a full year, or over last summer when the sun was bright and electric bills at their lowest.

over the course of 12 months, we compared the bills to the year before

 

[Uncle C]

over the course of 12 months, we compared the bills to the year before

Thats good then. Long may it continue.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Generation claims should all be the same as they have to quote a standard rate of 'sunshine' hours and should include reduced output over time due to the efficiency drops. Having said that, the government have stabbed the industry in the back with no warning (Pearl Harbouresque) by halving the tarriff and in effect doubling the payback time. Thank god we got in last month.

That sentence alone should set alarm bells ringing for anybody thinking of having these things installed.

 

[Uncle C]

That sentence alone should set alarm bells ringing for anybody thinking of having these things installed.

It also puts a great deal of faith in the premise that any Government can keep its promises for a 25 year period.

How long will it be before the tariffs only apply to the initial owner and drop down when you sell the house, or indeed austerity measures mean they will all fall in the years ahead.

If they can change pensions from being linked to CPI rather than RPI then they can do anything they wish with tariffs.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

Just had a solar PV system installed today and is already generating free lecky. Am normally quite risk averse about new technology and sceptical of potentially spurious financial projections but having done a fair bit of research and obtaining three quotes following the best practice approach in 'Which' etc. we felt the benefits easily outweigh the downside. A recent expose by 'Watchdog' and other consumer groups seems to have tightened up practices in the industry and made projections of benefits far more conservative and reliable.

A big factor is the spiralling cost of electricity - which is only going to get far worse. Yes it is easy to find a reason not to go for solar PV but for us 'to do nothing is not an option'.

To summarise we got quotes from installers with a good local portfolio of work and positive references who send a technician to do the initial quote - rather than misc. salesman and their associated on-costs/commission. I reckon we already avoided £1k unnecessary costs on that alone. While interest rates are so low our precious savings are falling behind inflation so better used on something more productive such as solar PV.

Plus we had already taken the obvious cheaper steps to be energy efficient eg loft insulation, double glazing etc but still decided to go ahead with solar PV. As it happened this turned out to be a few days before the Govt announced the new Dec 12th deadline. Both our installer and the 'FiT provider' (EoN) have been extremely helpful and it seems they are doing their utmost to help late applicants benefit from the existing tariff. Interestingly although the installer is seriously unimpressed with the Govts decision they are optimistic that solar PV will remain attractive as there will still be a reasonable FiT and the cost of the hardware will fall while electricity prices will inevitably escalate. After April 1 you will have to show your gaff acheives an energy rating of 'C' or above to be eligible for FiTs/grants so there is a further incentive to act sooner rather than later.

We certainly don't want to be hostage to the big utility companies so this is one way to try to take more control of spiralling costs. Yes there is a significant capital outlay (£8k for a 10 panel 2.4kw system) but the projected benefits are approx £1k per annum and should pay back the outlay in 8.5 years but of course we immediately get a significant amount of 'free' electricity. While it is mainly about the monetary side we will also save Co2 emissions, which feels ok too.

Would also consider having a solar thermal (hot water) system especially as we are currently dependent on oil for heating/hot water, so desperate to reduce this. There is some thought that these systems may become eligible for grants next year.

Early days for us but feel very positive about taking control of our energy costs. But for the tight timescale I would seriously think about obtaining an import licence and getting the kit from Germany where it is cheaper as they are about 10 years ahead of the UK. Then get an accredited engineer with a decent portfolio of past work to do the installation as long as they are MCS registered and can certify the electrics to Part P of the Regs.

Good luck to the OP.

 

[Uncle C]

Just had a solar PV system installed today and is already generating free lecky. Am normally quite risk averse about new technology and sceptical of potentially spurious financial projections but having done a fair bit of research and obtaining three quotes following the best practice approach in 'Which' etc. we felt the benefits easily outweigh the downside. A recent expose by 'Watchdog' and other consumer groups seems to have tightened up practices in the industry and made projections of benefits far more conservative and reliable.

A big factor is the spiralling cost of electricity - which is only going to get far worse. Yes it is easy to find a reason not to go for solar PV but for us 'to do nothing is not an option'.

To summarise we got quotes from installers with a good local portfolio of work and positive references who send a technician to do the initial quote - rather than misc. salesman and their associated on-costs/commission. I reckon we already avoided £1k unnecessary costs on that alone. While interest rates are so low our precious savings are falling behind inflation so better used on something more productive such as solar PV.

Plus we had already taken the obvious cheaper steps to be energy efficient eg loft insulation, double glazing etc but still decided to go ahead with solar PV. As it happened this turned out to be a few days before the Govt announced the new Dec 12th deadline. Both our installer and the 'FiT provider' (EoN) have been extremely helpful and it seems they are doing their utmost to help late applicants benefit from the existing tariff. Interestingly although the installer is seriously unimpressed with the Govts decision they are optimistic that solar PV will remain attractive as there will still be a reasonable FiT and the cost of the hardware will fall while electricity prices will inevitably escalate. After April 1 you will have to show your gaff acheives an energy rating of 'C' or above to be eligible for FiTs/grants so there is a further incentive to act sooner rather than later.

We certainly don't want to be hostage to the big utility companies so this is one way to try to take more control of spiralling costs. Yes there is a significant capital outlay (£8k for a 10 panel 2.4kw system) but the projected benefits are approx £1k per annum and should pay back the outlay in 8.5 years but of course we immediately get a significant amount of 'free' electricity. While it is mainly about the monetary side we will also save Co2 emissions, which feels ok too.

Would also consider having a solar thermal (hot water) system especially as we are currently dependent on oil for heating/hot water, so desperate to reduce this. There is some thought that these systems may become eligible for grants next year.

Early days for us but feel very positive about taking control of our energy costs. But for the tight timescale I would seriously think about obtaining an import licence and getting the kit from Germany where it is cheaper as they are about 10 years ahead of the UK. Then get an accredited engineer with a decent portfolio of past work to do the installation as long as they are MCS registered and can certify the electrics to Part P of the Regs.

Good luck to the OP.

I had real difficulty pinning down anyone that visitted me, on exactly what things are covered for the life of the system (25yrs projected). So, what written guarantees did you get on:
1. The installation including parts and soundness of your roof
2. The inverter
3. The solar panels

 

[Brixtaan]

An interesting thread ( I was hoping) but alas NOBODY has made anything clear here. Im inclined to lean towards Uncle C's comments as he seems to know best but he doesn't address the fact that we MUST look into this and make it pay because energy will become stupidly expensive in the future.
Let's just forget the 42p giveaway tariff from the govt, those days have gone,let's also forget the free installation deals with various companies because these are a rip-off and a middle man is always a bad idea. What I want to know is if I spend say £5k on decent Sanyo panels, get any old carpenter to fit them and someone official to sign it off then WILL THE ELECTRICITY I GENERATE IN THE DAYTIME MATCH MY USAGE IN THE EVENINGS? In other words will I be selling it to the power companies at 21p daytime and buying at 21p in the evenings? That's all I ask because Its always sunny where I live and I'm convinced IT MUST GENERATE DECENT POWER.
Someone earlier also mentioned batteries. Fantastic if you could store leccy generated in the day to use at night but I thought you needed warehouse size batteries to run simple domestic appliances? Hence the use of powerstations. Is electricity storage likely to be feasible anytime soon for a household?
If anyone is brave or knowledgable enough to answer these then please step from the shadows.

 

[Uncle C]

An interesting thread ( I was hoping) but alas NOBODY has made anything clear here. Im inclined to lean towards Uncle C's comments as he seems to know best but he doesn't address the fact that we MUST look into this and make it pay because energy will become stupidly expensive in the future.
Let's just forget the 42p giveaway tariff from the govt, those days have gone,let's also forget the free installation deals with various companies because these are a rip-off and a middle man is always a bad idea. What I want to know is if I spend say £5k on decent Sanyo panels, get any old carpenter to fit them and someone official to sign it off then WILL THE ELECTRICITY I GENERATE IN THE DAYTIME MATCH MY USAGE IN THE EVENINGS? In other words will I be selling it to the power companies at 21p daytime and buying at 21p in the evenings? That's all I ask because Its always sunny where I live and I'm convinced IT MUST GENERATE DECENT POWER.
Someone earlier also mentioned batteries. Fantastic if you could store leccy generated in the day to use at night but I thought you needed warehouse size batteries to run simple domestic appliances? Hence the use of powerstations. Is electricity storage likely to be feasible anytime soon for a household?
If anyone is brave or knowledgable enough to answer these then please step from the shadows.

I am no great expert, but I do ask a lot of questions being a nosey sod.

There are other issues with current PV installations I have not even covered. One is that if a shadow falls on just one panel of an array then the system has to shut down that array till the shadow has passed. The shadow could be from a chimney or even cast by a telephone wire.

Another problem is that installers like to put the inverters in lofts and the extremes of temperatures reduces their lifetime. Inverter are improving but the life expectancy is still only about 10years so expect to have to replace it twice. They cost around £700 and you will require an electrician to do it which also costs money.

Inverters are also pretty inefficient and waste a good percentage of your newly generated power.

The maximum array allowed on the buy in tarrif is 4KW I think - that is maximum output on the best sunny day, so you need to consider if at best it gets near covering your usage. At worst you have to remember at night when most of us are at home it gives nothing.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

The documentation about guarantees with both the quote and subsequently on installation is comprehensive. To summarise:

1. 10 year workmanship warranty from the installer
2. Inverter - 10 year manufacturers warranty
3. PV modules - 10 year workmanship & 25 year manufacturers warranty for power output down to 80% of original performance.

These appear to be typical warranties according to other quotes received.

Regarding 1) above I checked in advance with the local authority Building Control Dept. who accepted that a 200kg load from 10 PV panels and associated aluminium framework spread over several roof trusses in turn sitting on a huge RSJ within a modern-ish house (25 yrs old) and that the accredited installer had carried out a thorough survey beforehand. There is simple advice on the planning portal website: Planning Portal - Solar Panels re. complying with planning and building control requirements.

 

[Uncle C]

An interesting thread ( I was hoping) but alas NOBODY has made anything clear here. Im inclined to lean towards Uncle C's comments as he seems to know best but he doesn't address the fact that we MUST look into this and make it pay because energy will become stupidly expensive in the future.

Until the government introduced the BIT, existing technology PV panels in this country were dead in the water. You need to live in Spain to get anywhere near enough solar energy.
Evetually the scientist will improve the efficiency of panels so they become viable. Domestic wind energy is a non starter and heat pumps (extracting warmth from below ground) have some attraction.

 

[Uncle C]

The documentation about guarantees with both the quote and subsequently on installation is comprehensive. To summarise:

1. 10 year workmanship warranty from the installer
2. Inverter - 10 year manufacturers warranty
3. PV modules - 10 year workmanship & 25 year manufacturers warranty for power output down to 80% of original performance.

These appear to be typical warranties according to other quotes received.

Regarding 1) above I checked in advance with the local authority Building Control Dept. who accepted that a 200kg load from 10 PV panels and associated aluminium framework spread over several roof trusses in turn sitting on a huge RSJ within a modern-ish house (25 yrs old) and that the accredited installer had carried out a thorough survey beforehand. There is simple advice on the planning portal website: Planning Portal - Solar Panels re. complying with planning and building control requirements.

10 years was the best I got on 1. and 2. Some firms went as low as 3 years!

The glib statement about panels being guaranteed for 25 years is as far as I am concerned a con. Who do you go to if you think it is bust or down on efficiency? who then turns out and puts up scaffolding etc and at what cost to the house owner. I tried phoning a couple of the UK based panel manufacturers - they were not interested in fleshing out or formalising any guarantees.

I'm sorry, I dont have an axe to grind and dont wish to depress anyone with my negative views on current PV installations. Its just how I see it.

 

[beorhthelm]

@ Brixtaan, yes you would still end up with a net saving. some would argue that the savings themselves make it worthwhile over the life time, but the capital outlay is a stumbling block. you could look at it as buying your electricity now for the next 20 years. the obstacle of requiring an approved fitting/connection to the grid also pushes the cost up, i dont know if you can get a certified chap to come round and wire in/sign off to the grid for a cheap payment (i reckon someone offering this could do very well though, say £200 a pop? considered retraining myself).

i mentioned the batteries, they themselves are a cost as you'll need quite a few if you want to do more than run a few lights and chargers. if you have enough to fully utilise the solar output (say 2KW), you can run pretty much everything outside the kitchen: TVs, consoles, computers. you probably could run a fridge with enough. but then theres a distribution problem, you need to splt your heavy appliances from those modest ones ie a seperate non-kitchen ring main, which you might already have, but might not especially in an older house. (this is assuming a DIY job, with a proper signed off grid link)

I would suggest visting navitron that does kit and has a forum attached. theres another good forum, but i cant recall.

Uncle C has some points, but i think they are over stated. the panels dont lose all their effeciency (80% expected at 20 yrs?) and i dont recall have much failure rate (non-mechanical after all). i dont recall anything about short life spans of the inverters or (and £700 sounds very cheap) and certainly nothing about shadow effects. im not sure how Germany is ahead, as the photovoltaics are made in the far east as far as i could tell (the panels then assembled in the UK/EU to be (made in...). also gather the efficency has improved much for some time, limitations of the technology, but you could easily have a new method come along next month rendering the current panels out of date (wont stop them working though). Visuals is subjective, i think they look fine, just look like a glass tiled roof.

one thing to think about is not todays electricity prices but 5, 10 or 20 years time. if prices doubled and add inflation, we'll all be wishing we'd put some panels on the roof. im not entirly sure i decided right not to get an install done...

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

Agree that wind generators are unreliable even here in Norfolk where we are not short of wind! They are building hundreds of turbines just offshore yet these only operate for a fraction of the time as they are turned off when very windy or stationary during the windless snowy spells when needed most.

We looked at the heat pump options. Am not an expert but from my research Ground Source heat systems require significant works and wouldn't lend itself to a smallish plot and house like we have. Would appear to suit new builds rather than retro fits. An Air Source system appears more practical but the colder the weather the harder it has to work and uses more electricity which seems perverse but might be good alongside solar PV. Given the very cold spells in the last two winters I would be worried if Air Source will give any decent heat at the very time you need it most. Plus the lower temperature heat output seems to lend itself to wet underfloor heating systems rather than traditional radiator style central heating. A heat recovery system would compliment this on a new build.

In the end we opted to supplement our central heating with a 4.5kw multi-fuel woodburner which claims to be 86% efficient and choose to burn some e-coal and mainly wood from sustainable sources. This is great for cold evenings, is a superb visual benefit and gives resilience in the event of electricity/gas/oil power cuts. Another potential option is bio mass but don't know much about that.

A mate of mine is currently self-building a new house and has incorporated huge amounts of insulation, mega double glazing with high performance eco glass, a heat recovery system, two woodburners, solar PV and is expecting to optimise his use of fuels. A big investment but he should be laughing in years to come.