So much for George Osborne being a lightweight...

[Westdene Seagull]

What like the solid economic foundations the banking industry gave us recently, oh and is that the banking industry that is in the private sector?

You do realise there is a private sector outside the banks don't you ?

 

[Don Quixote]

The private sector caused this problem, let them feel the burden.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

You do realise there is a private sector outside the banks don't you ?

Of course I do!

I was trying to point out that the solid foundations that the poster believes our economy should be built on via the private sector can be very very unsteady, as proved recently by the banking crisis.

I believe that unless well managed, both the public and private sectors will cause problems for the economy, as has been proved over the last few years.

Being left wing I firmly believe in the public sector, but one that is well run and one that supplies the public essential public services. But I am not so stupid to believe that we can live in some sort of Socialist Utopia, this will not work. The public sector needs to be alongside thriving a private sector. I do believe that the two can go hand in hand together and work for the nation.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

The private sector caused this problem, let them feel the burden.

Exactly.

To quote Bill Hayes at this year's CWU Conference in Bournemouth:

" The kids on "sure start" - nurses and teachers - I cannot remember them - in the casino economy.

Yet the self same people now watch the computer screen and treat Greece, Spain and Portugal like a gang of punters - at Bet Fred

How did it happen that the Banks - caused the crisis - and now it is supposed to be the public sector that is the problem.

The 300,000 jobs that are now threatened. I don't remember those public sector workers - being reckless with our money and asking for a bailout. "

 

[simmo]

The private sector caused this problem, let them feel the burden.

Those of us in the private sector already have and are still doing so, many people in the private sector have come on NSC about redundancies (if unlucky) and no pay rises (if lucky) since about Autumn 2008 and if really unlucky their own businesses going bust.

Now it is the public sectors turn to join the world that those of us in the private sector have been in for the last 18 months. It has only been because of the election that deep cuts have not been made yet, now that the election is over, anyone with a slight understanding of economics know that cuts in public spending must be made, for the sake of the country.

Due to Labour's mishandling of the economy leading up to Autumn 2008 i.e spend, spend, spend and then the following global economic crisis, we now when we really need it, don't have an umbrella to put up now that the rainy days have arrived. We haven't got a pot to piss in and we are all in this together I am afraid.

 

[Simster]

The 300,000 jobs that are now threatened. I don't remember those public sector workers - being reckless with our money and asking for a bailout. "

And I don't remember the public sector workers generating 9% of our GDP on their own for the past two decades either, unlike the financial sector. I do imagine that these public sector workers sent their kids and families to up-to-date hospitals and the well looked-after state schools that the finance industry generated in tax, though.

In any case, it is a ridiculous argument. The entire private sector didn't cause this either - only the financial industry, and the fact that we've been living on credit as a nation for far too long, which is a collective failure.

Going back to larus's original post, where he was crowing about Osborne, please lets not forget that while we have these cuts promised, he was still championing inheritance tax cuts FFS. What an absolute twat.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Those of us in the private sector already have and are still doing so, many people in the private sector have come on NSC about redundancies (if unlucky) and no pay rises (if lucky) since about Autumn 2008 and if really unlucky their own businesses going bust.

Now it is the public sectors turn to join the world that those of us in the private sector have been in for the last 18 months. It has only been because of the election that deep cuts have not been made yet, now that the election is over, anyone with a slight understanding of economics know that cuts in public spending must be made, for the sake of the country.

Due to Labour's mishandling of the economy leading up to Autumn 2008 i.e spend, spend, spend and then the following global economic crisis, we now when we really need it, don't have an umbrella to put up now that the rainy days have arrived. We haven't got a pot to piss in and we are all in this together I am afraid.

I understand where you are coming from but it is just a tad unfair that the public sector workers did not cause this problem yet they are now going to have to suffer, I suppose that is the way of the world and as in most things in life fairness doesn't come into it.

I would also like to add that the majority of private sector workers were also not responsible for the mess we are in!

 

[strings]

Now it is the public sectors turn to join the world that those of us in the private sector have been in for the last 18 months. It has only been because of the election that deep cuts have not been made yet, now that the election is over, anyone with a slight understanding of economics know that cuts in public spending must be made, for the sake of the country.

Whilst I agree with the points made on here, the Government has to cut public sector budgets massively, I think there is some naivety about the percieved 'safeness' of public sector jobs. I was made jobless from a public sector job at the start of the recession. I managed to get a low-paid job to get me off benefit and eventually managed to get back to my old job, through a member of staff moving on. My department is now downsizing to 50% of what it currently (having already downsized when I originally lost my job).

I'm moving to a private sector post in August and, quite frankly, I am looking forward to working in a sector where I don't have a new wave of cuts threatening my job every couple of months.

Don't get me wrong, public sector cuts have to happen. However, I don't think us public sector workers have been as 'safe' in the past 18 months as most people seem to believe.

[edit] - Simmo, this isn't a direct criticism of you, your post just summed up several posts on here very well.

 

[wellquickwoody]

it is just a tad unfair that the public sector workers did not cause this problem yet they are now going to have to suffer

Those people have not caused the problem, agreed. But some of them have been living a life of riley on 30k jobs that produce jack shit, now they are gonna have to join the real economy again where only the truly productive earn decent money.

 

[simmo]

I understand where you are coming from but it is just a tad unfair that the public sector workers did not cause this problem yet they are now going to have to suffer, I suppose that is the way of the world and as in most things in life fairness doesn't come into it.

I would also like to add that the majority of private sector workers were also not responsible for the mess we are in!

I work for a private sector company but I don't work for a bank! I have never, ever wanted to work for a bank nor ever will.

Since Autumn 2008 I have had had no pay rise and I have seen a 20% reduction in staff numbers. I know I am one of the lucky ones.

Most of my friends whom work in the private sector (in fact I actually don't really know anyone whom works in a bank) have similar situtuatons, redundancies, businesses failing, pay freezes or cuts.

Have public sector services had to face a 20% slashing of their budgets etc? The real chance of business failure?

We are all in this together, there is no use saying it was the banks (private industry). The banks operate(d) under the laws of the land implemented by the governement of that time whom were.... Labour (and Brown actually made it easier, with a laissez faire attitude for them to do what they did!) The buck stops with the law makers i.e the government not those whom operate under their guidelines. If the guidelines were wrong (which they obviously were) the government should change them before it is too late, that is why we elect them, to look after (all of our) interests.

 

[larus]

Exactly.

To quote Bill Hayes at this year's CWU Conference in Bournemouth:

" The kids on "sure start" - nurses and teachers - I cannot remember them - in the casino economy.

Yet the self same people now watch the computer screen and treat Greece, Spain and Portugal like a gang of punters - at Bet Fred

How did it happen that the Banks - caused the crisis - and now it is supposed to be the public sector that is the problem.

The 300,000 jobs that are now threatened. I don't remember those public sector workers - being reckless with our money and asking for a bailout. "

We had a discussion about the railways a years or so ago and agreed that our views were not that far apart, although I would view my politics as right and you as left.

I believe that if you can take the vitriol out of the argument (btw, that's not aimed at you), you'll find that most people are similar in their goals, although the emphasis would be different.

IMO, most people aspire to have a successful economy (which must be predominantly private sector) - we need to make/sell things to the rest of the world to pay for the things we import. The public sector CANNOT do this.

We all desire good public services which should be good value for money. The perception of a lot of people is that the public sector it often cushy (I would definately exclude the front-line services from this generalisation).

For example. I believe that a Fireman can work for 25/30 years, then retire on 2/3 final salary, index linked. So, retire at 50, and say 25 years on 2/3 pension. We can't afford that as a country.

Most people are willing to pay taxes to provide a safety net for those that fall on hard time, but too many use welfare as a lifestyle choice. This is what aggravates many people.

A lot of people want a good education system/healthcare system, but accept that the Schools/NHS can never afford to provide the level of service which we would all like, so are willing to pay twice (they're already paid in taxes), to have a better education for their children or healthcare.

However, too many left wingers say that this is wrong. The simple fact is that the country cannot (and will never be able to) aford to provide the highest level serviecs to everyone via the state. So those with money will always be able to get better. This is no different to the communist/socialist model. The higher up in society you are, the more you have; always benn that way, always will.

The socialist utopia does not exist - however, uncontrolled captialism will fail as well, due to mankinds inbuilt greed mechanism. This is not just bankers; we see it in all levels of society :

Sick days in the public sector.
Cowboy builders.
People who pay for cash jobs.

 

[simmo]

Whilst I agree with the points made on here, the Government has to cut public sector budgets massively, I think there is some naivety about the percieved 'safeness' of public sector jobs. I was made jobless from a public sector job at the start of the recession. I managed to get a low-paid job to get me off benefit and eventually managed to get back to my old job, through a member of staff moving on. My department is now downsizing to 50% of what it currently (having already downsized when I originally lost my job).

I'm moving to a private sector post in August and, quite frankly, I am looking forward to working in a sector where I don't have a new wave of cuts threatening my job every couple of months.

Don't get me wrong, public sector cuts have to happen. However, I don't think us public sector workers have been as 'safe' in the past 18 months as most people seem to believe.

[edit] - Simmo, this isn't a direct criticism of you, your post just summed up several posts on here very well.

I know public sector postions have been cut and I am not having a go at public sector workers whom I think most of them do a great job, but to suggest that the private sector should bear (all/most) of the cuts is just plain ludicrous really. We are all in this together.

 

[strings]

I know public sector postions have been cut and I am not having a go at public sector workers whom I think most of them do a great job, but to suggest that the private sector should bear (all/most) of the cuts is just plain ludicrous really. We are all in this together.

I agree there, as I said. The public sector will have to bear massive cuts, and it ain't going to be nice. I'm just hoping that the private sector is at its' lowest ebb, because we are going to need private sector growth to get us through this...

 

[simmo]

I agree there, as I said. The public sector will have to bear massive cuts, and it ain't going to be nice. I'm just hoping that the private sector is at its' lowest ebb, because we are going to need private sector growth to get us through this...

I hope I sincerely hope, that the private sector has faced it's darkest days. I know that in 2008/9 it was hideous in the private sector everyone feared for their jobs etc. maybe just maybe we have turned the corner in respect of the private sector in 2010 (and that this can carry the country through the cuts that are inevitably going to have to happen). No doubt people will come on here and say it is miles worse (in the private sector) than ever before!

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

Most people are willing to pay taxes to provide a safety net for those that fall on hard time, but too many use welfare as a lifestyle choice. This is what aggravates many people.

Nail on head. If I fell on hard times I would expect the state to help me as I have contributed to the NI "pot" for a number of years. I also dont mind if those of a genuine need use it as well even if they have never been able to work and therefore contribute.

But I would argue that we do need to means test. As long as its FAIR. If you can work then you can do at the very least community projects for your welfare payments.

 

[folkestonesgull]

Make your mind up, one minute people are hailing the genius and financial acumen of gordon brown ' saving the world ' by bailing out the banks, are you saying he should have done nothing ? as for tax breaks in areas of high unemployment, how do tax breaks that create employment and thus generate income tax actually ' cost ' money ? thats a new one on me .

my response was to your comment
"my point is that the taxpayer doesnt pay for pointless private sector jobs."

when clearly it does. Tax breaks and incentives often cost the country far more than it will ever recoup from income tax, however do ensure the unemployment figures stay in check in areas of major deprivation.

Frankly this whole private/public sector argument bores me. The country clearly needs both and the more they can support each other (for instance all schools and hospitals using local producers and contractors) the better.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Chicken runner. THE PUBLIC SECTOR CAN'T.WONT grow if we go into deep recession ! Who do you think pays for the public sector ?

no-one, we just print money.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Nail on head. If I fell on hard times I would expect the state to help me as I have contributed to the NI "pot" for a number of years. I also dont mind if those of a genuine need use it as well even if they have never been able to work and therefore contribute.

But I would argue that we do need to means test. As long as its FAIR. If you can work then you can do at the very least community projects for your welfare payments.

personally I think it is the duty of the state to protect and support the most vunerable in society, the trick is at where do you draw that line. That depends on your politics and your tolerance to those in society who are not in your eyes "contributing".

Again, it is dependant on your politics, however I think it is absurd to cut the wages of the lowest paid people in our society ( which is what is happening in Spain and the rest of the Eurozone) to recover a debt caused by the speculation activities of a group of highly paid capitalists, who due to the way our society is run were not regulated and revered by the government at the time as "pillars of virtue" when in effect they were all greedy money grabbing charletans.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

We are all in this together, there is no use saying it was the banks (private industry). The banks operate(d) under the laws of the land implemented by the governement of that time whom were.... Labour (and Brown actually made it easier, with a laissez faire attitude for them to do what they did!) The buck stops with the law makers i.e the government not those whom operate under their guidelines. If the guidelines were wrong (which they obviously were) the government should change them before it is too late, that is why we elect them, to look after (all of our) interests.

So why would someone go to work for the FSA when they'll be paid something factorily more at Citibank, RBS or whoever. You just won't get the best people working for the regulatory agencies in this sector; they'll be headhunted by the finance companies who, prior to the banking collapse, were actively working to avoid regulatory scrutiny of their businesses by the Fed reserve, FSA etc. Personal greed and lack of corporate governance are not a good mix. Fools Gold by Gillian Tett is a decent if worrying read on this subject.

 

[withdeanwombat]

Again, it is dependant on your politics, however I think it is absurd to cut the wages of the lowest paid people in our society ( which is what is happening in Spain and the rest of the Eurozone) to recover a debt caused by the speculation activities of a group of highly paid capitalists, who due to the way our society is run were not regulated and revered by the government at the time as "pillars of virtue" when in effect they were all greedy money grabbing charletans.

Oh,leave it out.

This thread was bubbling along nicely with a mish mash of economic "truths" and political wisdom,and you have to spoil it by being right.