Sir Bobby Charlton.

[Man of Harveys]

I don't like him much. Bit like Geoff Hurst, always seems to be a right miserable bastard.

I've always rather tended to agree - couldn't quite work out how an unquestioned playing legend like him is really such a dull, bland individual later in life; very unlike, say, Pele, who makes outrageous claims sponsored by Mastercard for a living, or Beckenbauer, who organises entire world cups single-handedly and gets stroppy on telly when Bayern are rubbish, that sort of thing.

But I suspect that, Bobby Charlton was very badly mentally scarred by what happened 50 years ago whilst he was still young. Dignity is, I guess, his retreat.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

I've always rather tended to agree - couldn't quite work out how an unquestioned playing legend like him is really such a dull, bland individual later in life; very unlike, say, Pele, who makes outrageous claims sponsored by Mastercard for a living, or Beckenbauer, who organises entire world cups single-handedly and gets stroppy on telly when Bayern are rubbish, that sort of thing.

But I suspect that, Bobby Charlton was very badly mentally scarred by what happened 50 years ago whilst he was still young. Dignity is, I guess, his retreat.

I suspect you're right. It's clear from his book that he hero worshipped Duncan Edwards and was very much in awe of the others, and as team mates they were very close, added this his closest friend was Eddie Colman then you get a feel for the loss. After reading his book and watching the various programs about Munich, it is clear to me that he has never really gotten over it, and I suspect the guilt at surving plays heavily on his mind. Again from the book the older Busby babes were modest, quietly spoken and respectful, Harry Gregg being a prime example and so maybe this is where it comes from. His Brother Jack has always said that Bobby was somewhat of an introvert so we shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Stat Brother]

This isn't going to be popular, but here goes.

I don't get it, 23 footballs died in an accident 50 years.
Accidents happen Capello talked of Torrino, suffering a similar fate.
Yes I'm sure the families of those involved were sparing a thought to that tragedy, but why does the national game have to come to a halt because of it?

3,201 people died on our roads in 2005, where's their voice?

If BC were to champion that cause because he knows the pain all those 1000's of familes are going through, I'd be prepared to listen to him, but just rehashing the events of 50 years every so often, serves no purpose except to give the Princess Diana grief-mongers something else to cry about.

 

[Gully]

If he were playing today I would wage money on Bobby Charlton featuring on the favourite Premiership players list, he is a similar type of character to most of those featured, modest about his achievements, committed to his team and self-effacing...a true legend of the game.

 

[Mick Beard BHA]

I suspect you're right. It's clear from his book that he hero worshipped Duncan Edwards and was very much in awe of the others, and as team mates they were very close, added this his closest friend was Eddie Colman then you get a feel for the loss. After reading his book and watching the various programs about Munich, it is clear to me that he has never really gotten over it, and I suspect the guilt at surving plays heavily on his mind. Again from the book the older Busby babes were modest, quietly spoken and respectful, Harry Gregg being a prime example and so maybe this is where it comes from. His Brother Jack has always said that Bobby was somewhat of an introvert so we shouldn't be surprised.

Totally, and what MoH said aswell. I havent managed to see any of the programmes about Munich, but there was a short bit on Footy Focus on saturday and it was very emotional. I guess they used clips from the full-length programmes? Anyway, to see Charlton (barely managing to) speak about what happened was very moving.
I remember hearing a story once about when England won the World Cup; having received the trophy and left the ground all the lads started to celebrate, of course; except for Charlton who went back to his hotel room, where he stayed for the rest of the evening on his own. It seems that even at such a great moment he was unable to really celebrate- does he cover that in his autobiography aswell?

 

[Biscuit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Edwards

f***ing hell. He was 21.. thats my age.

If he was half the player everyone describes him as..

 

[Stat Brother]

This isn't going to be popular, but here goes.

I don't get it, 23 footballs died in an accident 50 years.
Accidents happen Capello talked of Torrino, suffering a similar fate.
Yes I'm sure the families of those involved were sparing a thought to that tragedy, but why does the national game have to come to a halt because of it?

3,201 people died on our roads in 2005, where's their voice?

If BC were to champion that cause because he knows the pain all those 1000's of familes are going through, I'd be prepared to listen to him, but just rehashing the events of 50 years every so often, serves no purpose except to give the Princess Diana grief-mongers something else to cry about.

I was listening to 5-live, this morning. The 2 presenters were talking to a broadsheet columnist, just before 7:30, he said:-

"well I'm a little older than you two, but I was a baby when Munich happened, so although I don't remember it, I grew up in the shadow of the tradegy, and it really was a Princess Diana moment".

Unsuprisingly I have so many issues with that statement.

 

[Yorkie]

I suspect you're right. It's clear from his book that he hero worshipped Duncan Edwards and was very much in awe of the others, and as team mates they were very close, added this his closest friend was Eddie Colman then you get a feel for the loss. After reading his book and watching the various programs about Munich, it is clear to me that he has never really gotten over it, and I suspect the guilt at surving plays heavily on his mind. Again from the book the older Busby babes were modest, quietly spoken and respectful, Harry Gregg being a prime example and so maybe this is where it comes from. His Brother Jack has always said that Bobby was somewhat of an introvert so we shouldn't be surprised.

Both you and MOH have it right. An accident like that and grief affect people in different way. Until you have been in the situation of suddenly losing 7 of your mates with an 8th one dying two weeks later, you don't know how you would handle life in the future.

 

[dougdeep]

hes old, it goes with the territory !!

What youngsters don't understand, and I didn't either at that age, is that it's not until you get old, that you realise that the young know f*** all.

 

[NMH]

Looking at the interviews with Bobby Charlton over the last few days left me with the impression that he is in the early stages of Parkinsons, which if true is very sad, did anyone else get that feeling?

Yes, noticed it immediately.

 

[NMH]

This isn't going to be popular, but here goes.

I don't get it, 23 footballs died in an accident 50 years.
Accidents happen Capello talked of Torrino, suffering a similar fate.
Yes I'm sure the families of those involved were sparing a thought to that tragedy, but why does the national game have to come to a halt because of it?

3,201 people died on our roads in 2005, where's their voice?

If BC were to champion that cause because he knows the pain all those 1000's of familes are going through, I'd be prepared to listen to him, but just rehashing the events of 50 years every so often, serves no purpose except to give the Princess Diana grief-mongers something else to cry about.

So, if that is always going to distract people from remembering loss - why not a big tribute to Biafran children who starved, the victims of Aberfan, the tsunami, the holocaust, those who died climbing Everest.... sod it, everyone who ever died - let's have a decade of silence and throw in the extinction of the dinosaurs for good measure?

Unpopular? I doubt your statement is looked at in any way but incredulous!

Another thing, and perhaps if you knew what you were on about there you may have pointed it out - but they were NOT "23 football(er)s that died" (I assume you had a mental blurt that led to you typing "23 footballs died"), there were 8 of the MUFC squad, plus other victims. Yes, the other victims are just as important to mourn, but this is football, and burying football players is what football is doing in this event.


Anyway...... It's worth noting that the players of that age didn't make prima-donna status or get paid multimillions (or comparable wages to 'back in the day'). So just playing football for the sake of the game, was their motivation. From that foundation came the World Cup winning team, and a nod to all those players from every nation, who welted a thick heavy lump of leather that gained weight when wet. It was a simpler era, and men from those times are rooted with modesty, no strutting or bling, no ferrari or mansion.
To bring the memory of those players to 2008 may well be the final mark of remembrance before the event become ancient history. In effect, the modern game still owes them at least a nod, even if in death they became unwilling, passive people to the event.

The bottom line must be; if you don't care or have any feeling for the whole affair - don't partake, and just have enough respect for others to allow them to have their feelings and their tribute. That's a fundamental thing to ask for, and any active effort to refuse it will be a disrespect.

If Manchester City want to do something to raise their own respect among clubs, and among onlookers - they'll simply show respect for that fundamental feeling of mourning, and entitlement to remember the dead. In THAT way, all dead ARE given a due respect by the living.

 

[Shegull]

What youngsters don't understand, and I didn't either at that age, is that it's not until you get old, that you realise that the young know f*** all.

Thats very true how does that saying go when i was fourteen my father knew absolutely nothing now I am 24 its amazaing how much he has learned in the last ten years (or something like like).

Saw the Harry Gregg programme and it was an exremely sad and moving expeience to listen to him.

If it happened today just how many of those survivors would be out playing again a matter of two or three weeks later. And I don't believe that I once heard him mention that anybody was given counselling.

Those men truly are to be admired.

 

[Stat Brother]

So, if that is always going to distract people from remembering loss - why not a big tribute to Biafran children who starved, the victims of Aberfan, the tsunami, the holocaust, those who died climbing Everest.... sod it, everyone who ever died - let's have a decade of silence and throw in the extinction of the dinosaurs for good measure?

Is that not my point?

The bottom line must be; if you don't care or have any feeling for the whole affair - don't partake, and just have enough respect for others to allow them to have their feelings and their tribute. That's a fundamental thing to ask for, and any active effort to refuse it will be a disrespect.

I could not agree more. Slightly off on a tangent, but I was at a Catholic Christening recently, I could not have been more respectful, even though I have many issues with Catholic dogma. I would never disrespect such an event.

If Manchester City want to do something to raise their own respect among clubs, and among onlookers - they'll simply show respect for that fundamental feeling of mourning, and entitlement to remember the dead. In THAT way, all dead ARE given a due respect by the living.

Why should the England team come into it, City yes, they have a vested interest with some of those who died, but what did the FA expect to happen having a 30 second silence at Wembley. I'm suprised they got that far.

 

[Beach Hut]

Why should the England team come into it, City yes, they have a vested interest with some of those who died, but what did the FA expect to happen having a 30 second silence at Wembley. I'm suprised they got that far.

Have to agree with that this is a Manchester issue not a national issue so why the FA decided on this is beyond me as well.

 

[Questions]

I suspect you're right. It's clear from his book that he hero worshipped Duncan Edwards and was very much in awe of the others, and as team mates they were very close, added this his closest friend was Eddie Colman then you get a feel for the loss. After reading his book and watching the various programs about Munich, it is clear to me that he has never really gotten over it, and I suspect the guilt at surving plays heavily on his mind. Again from the book the older Busby babes were modest, quietly spoken and respectful, Harry Gregg being a prime example and so maybe this is where it comes from. His Brother Jack has always said that Bobby was somewhat of an introvert so we shouldn't be surprised.

There was a general modesty from players in those days. You often hear stories of players travelling to their home games with the fans on trains and buses.

Imagine that now.

Charlton may not win any awards for his after dinner speaking but to me he is a god - a true legend who I idolised as a boy as much for the way he played the game as the success he had in his illustrious career.

 

[Questions]

Why should the England team come into it, City yes, they have a vested interest with some of those who died, but what did the FA expect to happen having a 30 second silence at Wembley. I'm suprised they got that far.

Top England players died that day thats why they had a moment for them.

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

I was incredibly impressed with the Man City fans today. I know we should not be surprised (and delighted) that they were silent for one minute - but there was the potential for some clown to try to make a name. Well done both clubs and the Manchester media for communicating so clearly to both sets of fans that this was a Manchester disaster - not just a Man U one.

 

[Questions]

Another reason why I think Sir Bobby took it even harder was that the man he admired, respected and loved so much seemed to have pulled through and was even telling some of the players that visited him to get stuck in come the next match.

Maybe thats why Charlton`s first words upon being told of Edwards death were, ''Oh no not Duncan''

I think he thought he`d made it.

 

[Stat Brother]

Top England players died that day thats why they had a moment for them.

Sorry to keep banging the same drum over this, but:-

That only applies if they are to only England footballer to have ever died.
Which quite obviously isn't the case, time marches on and people die.

What anniversary are we now at for Bobby Moore?, Stanley Mathews? Dixie Dean?
We either have a moment for all or no one.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Sorry to keep banging the same drum over this, but:-

That only applies if they are to only England footballer to have ever died.
Which quite obviously isn't the case, time marches on and people die.

What anniversary are we now at for Bobby Moore?, Stanley Mathews? Dixie Dean?
We either have a moment for all or no one.

None of the above died before they were 22, on the way home from representing English football in Europe. It is argued that the team died that day as it took agood five years before they got back to being close to their best.

Personally, I've never understood why Hillsboro gets remered more than the fire at Bradford, surely they should receive the same attenion, but they should still be remembered.