[Finance] Self employed to receive 80% of income from the Gov’t too

[Silverhatch]

They will only know his earnings if the contractor has submitted their monthly CIS returns. Many contractors don't keep up their side of the bargain.

Thanks. I believe my lad's boss to be one of the good guys. Anyway, the link to the LITRG supplied by Bold Seagull proved v useful. We have now sent his rebate form to HMRC together with some very detailed back up info (he keeps on a spreadsheet). Let's see how receptive and responsive HMRC/CIS team is.

Then we can hopefully work out what ESA allowances he can get.

 

[razer]

This is such a grey area though.

"Completing statutory duties" varies massively from one company to another.

And what if someone is desperately working on leads/contacts to try to get some work in for the next few months?

That's outside the spectrum of statutory duties but may well produce zero income.

This is such a ****ing mess.

Us accountants are completely buggered. If we don't assist the numbnuts clients they will starve or pay their staff the incorrect wages. Yet because we are nice guys who won't be charging but do it anyway, we are working and don't get a penny. Ain't right really is it?

 

[Wrong-Direction]

I heard self employed with less than a full years tax, say 9months will be spread out over a year meaning you get even less?

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

 

[Gazwag]

This is such a grey area though.

"Completing statutory duties" varies massively from one company to another.

And what if someone is desperately working on leads/contacts to try to get some work in for the next few months?

That's outside the spectrum of statutory duties but may well produce zero income.

This is such a ****ing mess.

Yes, my view of atatutory duties is those things which a company must do such at file accounts, file returns such as its CS01 but are CT returns, VAT returns and Rti submissions "statutory" who knows. But that's about it. Doesn't seem right.

 

[Gazwag]

I heard self employed with less than a full years tax, say 9months will be spread out over a year meaning you get even less?

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No my understanding is it will be divided by 9

 

[Weststander]

I heard self employed with less than a full years tax, say 9months will be spread out over a year meaning you get even less?

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You heard wrong, Chinese whispers.

Your self employed taxable profits in the tax returns for the period 6 April 2016 to 5 Apr 2019, are divided by 36 to give a monthly sum. But if for example you started trading on 1 July 2018, the taxable profits are divided by 9 to give a monthly sum.

You’ll then receive a monthly sum backdated to the beginning of March at the lower of:
£2,500; or
80% of the monthly sum mentioned above.

Those with trading profits over £50,000 in those tax return periods, are not covered.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Us accountants are completely buggered. If we don't assist the numbnuts clients they will starve or pay their staff the incorrect wages. Yet because we are nice guys who won't be charging but do it anyway, we are working and don't get a penny. Ain't right really is it?

Yep.

I've basically turned into the CAB in the last few days.

Trying to answer impossible questions, reassure people as far as I can and debunking complete rubbish that they've heard.

For which I will be paid.......... nothing.

We just have to do what we can though don't we.

I expect to get the square root of **** all from the government.

 

[LlcoolJ]

I heard self employed with less than a full years tax, say 9months will be spread out over a year meaning you get even less?

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

Hold tight.

As I posted earlier. The HMRC website currently contradicts what Gollum said yesterday. And itself.

He said you were screwed.

The website says you can apply (but are probably still screwed).

But nothing has actually been finalised yet, there is no way to claim or any way to find out what the actual criteria for claiming are. Yet.

What concerns me most is HMRC's record on this sort of thing. Tax credits anyone? An absolute disaster. They had a lot longer to prepare that and still made a total bollocks of it.

 

[Weststander]

Yes. A very good point. As every client I work for makes it pretty clear that if anything goes wrong, I'm very much on my own, this is an important consideration too.

I just wish the tax system would be changed to reflect real life working practices. It's the really massive companies that are manipulating the market to their ends - but it appears to HMRC are more obsessed with the self-employed who are just trying to make a living. For instance, they seem to think I can dictate every aspect of the terms on which I work. I try to where I can but push too hard and the solution's easy: they'll just give someone else the job. Genuinely, given the size of some of these corporations, it would be like me trying to tell McDonalds how to run their business.

It won’t be a comfort to you, but the annual tax and penalties take from enquiries into medium and large sized companies, multinationals and wealthy individuals has grown to huge multi £B’s over the last 10 years, as well as the tax take from those entities now shying away from dodgy tax avoidance schemes and criminal evasion in the first place. I have the figures somewhere.

It’s been the one growth area in HMRC staffing in last 10 years, with significant recruitment.

It’s a man on the street myth that the poor old taxi driver or jobbing builder is being bullied by HMRC, whilst the bent millionaire or sly large company owner are left alone. I have wealthy clients, their tax affairs are examined by a new and very switched on HMRC department.

The one area still largely untouched, which I hate as much as anyone, is the corporation tax avoidance by Dell, Starbucks, Amazon and Google. This is complicated, because Ireland, The Netherlands, Bermuda and Luxembourg are their partners in the tax avoidance, because they gain by having their ‘HQ’ there with staff, whilst allowing them to divert all their UK/French/German profits there, whilst paying bugger all corporation tax in those countries. Trump has also made it abundantly clear that he will take trade reprisals should the EU aggressively pursue US multinationals.

 

[NooBHA]

Not sure if this is already posted somewhere above

The source comes from a public conversation with the CBI on Friday with Ben Kerry, Head of Labour Markets, HM Treasury where he stated that directors would be allowed to carry out their statutory duties. Please also note this in the self employment guidance the following is stated

“Those who pay themselves a salary and dividends through their own company are not covered by the scheme but will be covered for their salary by the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme if they are operating PAYE schemes.”

 

[LlcoolJ]

Not sure if this is already posted somewhere above

The source comes from a public conversation with the CBI on Friday with Ben Kerry, Head of Labour Markets, HM Treasury where he stated that directors would be allowed to carry out their statutory duties. Please also note this in the self employment guidance the following is stated

“Those who pay themselves a salary and dividends through their own company are not covered by the scheme but will be covered for their salary by the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme if they are operating PAYE schemes.”

Yes.

But most still may as well claim UC as it's possible to put a claim in now (well, supposed to be, but the system is shit) rather than in a few weeks.

They will get a similar amount of money and they may also qualify for assistance with housing costs.

Of course if they have been paid a higher salary than the usual minimal one, then a claim through the CJRS may well be better. But with no mechanism to claim currently, nobody actually knows......

As I keep saying, every case is different.

And this is why I agree with you on the universal income point. Would have been MUCH more simple to administer and would have been much lower risk.

May still happen imo as this current set of policies is totally rubbish.

 

[pauli cee]

I did keep up to date with this thread for the few days, but have since lost track, (and my mind), with it.
I appreciate the accountants on this thread are pretty busy, and probably be a bit stressed out, but just a quick one...

I',m self employed / CIS with years of books and guessing, (not presuming) I will get whatever this 80% turns out to be.
But should I be applying for Universal Credit in the meantime?
For reference, I live alone, no dependents, have mortgage.

Thanks in advance

 

[LlcoolJ]

I did keep up to date with this thread for the few days, but have since lost track, (and my mind), with it.
I appreciate the accountants on this thread are pretty busy, and probably be a bit stressed out, but just a quick one...

I',m self employed / CIS with years of books and guessing, (not presuming) I will get whatever this 80% turns out to be.
But should I be applying for Universal Credit in the meantime?
For reference, I live alone, no dependents, have mortgage.

Thanks in advance

It's a bit impossible at the moment mate. There's no joined up thinking between claiming UC and those who will be able to claim through the new schemes.

Most of what I've been talking about has related to small Ltd Companies but your case is different obviously.

You definitely WILL qualify for the Self Employment compensation scheme but at present, there is no way to put a claim in for that.

If you can, then in your case I would hold on for now and once the scheme is up and running, get a claim in on that asap. It will be backdated so if you can survive until June/July you SHOULD be reimbursed back to the date from which you couldn't work.

However, if you need help sooner, get a claim for UC done. No guarantees that you'll get anything through that any time soon but it is currently the only way to access any money. There is supposed to be a system whereby one your claim is approved, you can get money before the usual 5 week waiting period.

This is all shit news I realise. And I can't be 100% about all of it because it's all still changing on a daily basis. Just trying to pass on what information I do know.

If anyone finds out anything else then stick it on the thread as sharing info is really helpful at present!

My head hurts.

Oh and pauli, hopefully you've already applied for the mortgage holiday thing through your lender.....

 

[pauli cee]

It's a bit impossible at the moment mate. There's no joined up thinking between claiming UC and those who will be able to claim through the new schemes.

Most of what I've been talking about has related to small Ltd Companies but your case is different obviously.

You definitely WILL qualify for the Self Employment compensation scheme but at present, there is no way to put a claim in for that.

If you can, then in your case I would hold on for now and once the scheme is up and running, get a claim in on that asap. It will be backdated so if you can survive until June/July you SHOULD be reimbursed back to the date from which you couldn't work.

However, if you need help sooner, get a claim for UC done. No guarantees that you'll get anything through that any time soon but it is currently the only way to access any money. There is supposed to be a system whereby one your claim is approved, you can get money before the usual 5 week waiting period.

This is all shit news I realise. And I can't be 100% about all of it because it's all still changing on a daily basis. Just trying to pass on what information I do know.

If anyone finds out anything else then stick it on the thread as sharing info is really helpful at present!

My head hurts.

Oh and pauli, hopefully you've already applied for the mortgage holiday thing through your lender.....

Really appreciate yours, Westanders and others knowledge and help through this, as I'm sure many others do.
You guys are an unknown and unpaid key workers!!
Am in process of putting in an application for UC, just in the queue to have my ID confirmed...and yep, have applied for the mortgage holiday

It said on my UC application I should apply for Council tax help too.

I know there are a lot of people who will have a lot more troubling times through this than me, and I really feel for them, but just trying to put in place whatever measures I can, as none of us know how long this will go on for.

Thanks again mate for your ongoing help!

 

[LlcoolJ]

Really appreciate yours, Westanders and others knowledge and help through this, as I'm sure many others do.
You guys are an unknown and unpaid key workers!!
Am in process of putting in an application for UC, just in the queue to have my ID confirmed...and yep, have applied for the mortgage holiday[emoji106]

It said on my UC application I should apply for Council tax help too.

I know there are a lot of people who will have a lot more troubling times through this than me, and I really feel for them, but just trying to put in place whatever measures I can, as none of us know how long this will go on for.

Thanks again mate for your ongoing help!

No worries.

Yes, Weststander pointed out the council tax thing earlier on the thread. That's another one that could really help.

Best of luck!

 

[pauli cee]

No worries.

Yes, Weststander pointed out the council tax thing earlier on the thread. That's another one that could really help.

Best of luck!

Thanks mate.

You too!!

 

[Weststander]

Really appreciate yours, Westanders and others knowledge and help through this, as I'm sure many others do.
You guys are an unknown and unpaid key workers!!
Am in process of putting in an application for UC, just in the queue to have my ID confirmed...and yep, have applied for the mortgage holiday

It said on my UC application I should apply for Council tax help too.

I know there are a lot of people who will have a lot more troubling times through this than me, and I really feel for them, but just trying to put in place whatever measures I can, as none of us know how long this will go on for.

Thanks again mate for your ongoing help!

Cheers. I’m fairly relaxed myself and I like helping others on NSC. Plus dispelling false information that might worry some folk.

Good luck with everything.

For you and all self employed with average annual taxable profits up to £50,000 who may benefit from the scheme, HMRC will be writing inviting you to make a claim. There’s little point in joining day long HMRC telephone queues just now. My guess is that the letters will be sent out in late April.

Universal Credit is the option if you can’t survive financially until June and have savings of less than £16,000.

 

[pauli cee]

Cheers. I’m fairly relaxed myself and I like helping others on NSC. Plus dispelling false information that might worry some folk.

Good luck with everything.

For you and all self employed with average annual taxable profits up to £50,000 who may benefit from the scheme, HMRC will be writing inviting you to make a claim. There’s little point in joining day long HMRC telephone queues just now. My guess is that the letters will be sent out in late April.

Universal Credit is the option if you can’t survive financially until June and have savings of less than £16,000.

Thanks mate,
Your help is appreciated by me and others I'm sure!
Still in queue for ID verification with UC.
Will be interesting to see what's in the wording from HMRC, especially with regards to the date of unemployment, "The self employed are never unemployed, just between jobs...." As there are plenty of sites still open, and not against the rules for us to go out to work technically, I even had an email from the contractor I'm working for saying he had sites I could go to, but couldn't guarantee safe distancing, so we all refused.

Will be gutted if the government squirm out of this one, but not surprised......

Take care

 

[Weststander]

Thanks mate,
Your help is appreciated by me and others I'm sure!
Still in queue for ID verification with UC.
Will be interesting to see what's in the wording from HMRC, especially with regards to the date of unemployment, "The self employed are never unemployed, just between jobs...." As there are plenty of sites still open, and not against the rules for us to go out to work technically, I even had an email from the contractor I'm working for saying he had sites I could go to, but couldn't guarantee safe distancing, so we all refused.

Will be gutted if the government squirm out of this one, but not surprised......

Take care

I know there are many more cynical than me in this thread, but you will be looked after. Just be patient, persistent and expect HMRC admin incompetence. On this occasion, the authorities want the money to get to you, to keep the economy going, and avoid personal and corporate insolvencies which would damage the UK.

Because your income was honestly declared in full through the CIS scheme, you’ll be one of the winners. The builders and subbies who suppressed income to evade tax, depending on the figures, may be stuffed.

UC - sites open and job offers is irrelevant on this occasion, there’s no need to mention them in your claim.

 

[pauli cee]

I know there are many more cynical than me in this thread, but you will be looked after. Just be patient, persistent and expect HMRC admin incompetence. On this occasion, the authorities want the money to get to you, to keep the economy going, and avoid personal and corporate insolvencies which would damage the UK.

Because your income was honestly declared in full through the CIS scheme, you’ll be one of the winners. The builders and subbies who suppressed income to evade tax, depending on the figures, may be stuffed.

UC - sites open and job offers is irrelevant on this occasion, there’s no need to mention them in your claim.

fingers crossed