[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Blue Valkyrie]

It is clear the Russian sailors on that ship weren't doing the looting, raping, defiling and executing of civilians ordered by the Kremlin.

So they are in a different category.

However I applaud the sending of that Kalibr missile launching warship to the sea bed.

 

[Eric the meek]

I remember reading a few days ago, that the UK were going to send anti-ship missiles to Ukraine.

Then this happens. And the Ukrainians took the trouble to tell us that the missiles they used to hit the Moskva were Ukrainian ones.

Am I taking 2 and 2 and making 5?

 

[portslade seagull]

I wonder who supplied the co-ordinates for the missiles unless they are heat seeking

 

[herecomesaregular]

I accept that.

I'm not anit-Clamp and don't mean to pile in on you. The war is atrocious, Ukraine will hopefully defeat them, Russians must die for this to happen, there's no nice way to kill and die. I just would prefer not to read such comments on here that was all. Probably a bit hypocritical of me and hate for Russians is understandable.

 

[herecomesaregular]

This war seems to show that tanks, helicopters and ships are becoming outdated? The numbers of tanks and helicopters lost seem high. They don't seem to have effective defense against new missiles and they cost a lot of money to produce. Perhaps this is why Russian tactics are bomb the shit out of a location from afar. War has not really moved on much from two armies on foot walking towards each other and being slaughtered.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Unlike you I don't. My view on this - and I accept that this is not necessarily going to be a popular one - is that a lot of the Russian soldiers/sailors are also victims of Putin and his desire to recreate the old Soviet Union. Most of the Russians fighting are not seasoned professional soldiers, they are teenage conscripts who were initially told they were going on exercise. Going by some of the reports quite of lot of them don't want to be there at all and can't understand why they're fighting their 'brothers' but they're too afraid to speak out.

The murderers who need to die horribly are the ones in the Kremlin directing events, not the 18 year old conscripts who have been forced to be there

Russia still has conscription for males aged 18-27.

 

[The Clamp]

I'm not anit-Clamp and don't mean to pile in on you. The war is atrocious, Ukraine will hopefully defeat them, Russians must die for this to happen, there's no nice way to kill and die. I just would prefer not to read such comments on here that was all. Probably a bit hypocritical of me and hate for Russians is understandable.

No, in the cold light of day my post was rather harsh. I handled that clumsily. My blood was up. At work right now I am safeguarding a lady who fled Ukraine and we are in touch with the Red Cross to try and locate her family in Ukraine. Including her child. It’s heartbreaking. Sometimes we get cases in that you just know aren’t going to end well. But my bad. Thank you for your reply.

 

[highflyer]

"I was only following orders" was the stock defence of many at the Nuremburg (and other trials) following WW2 to the charges of genocide and other "crimes against humanity".

It didn't work then and it sure as hell shouldn't work now.

How do you feel about those that followed orders to send missiles into heavily populated areas of Baghdad in March and April 2003? Missiles that killed some 7.000 civilians (as part of a conflict that was also justified on the back of deliberately constructed lies and a conflict that has been used by Russia to help justify it's invasion of Ukraine)?

I don't ask to discount the atrocities in Ukraine, but to support the argument that terrible things inevitably happen to people when leaders choose to take their countries to war. Terrible things on both sides.There may, occasionally, be necessary war. But there is no honourable war. There is no glorious war. And I do not believe there is war which does not result in atrocity. We know this, we have learnt it time and again through history, so it is those that use their power to initiate war that must be ultimately held accountable for their decisions and actions.

I apologise if this is the wrong post for this thread. I appreciate the understandable sensitivities for many of those contributing. But the discussions on what people wish for Russian soldiers (many, as pointed, out being conscripts) I think makes it important to ask for some reflection.

 

[Triggaaar]

I don't ask to discount the atrocities in Ukraine, but to support the argument that terrible things inevitably happen to people when leaders choose to take their countries to war. Terrible things on both sides.There may, occasionally, be necessary war. But there is no honourable war. There is no glorious war. And I do not believe there is war which does not result in atrocity.

While I agree with you that atrocities happen in all wars, I think it's a mistake to then pretend that the scale of atrocities in all wars are equal. For example, you say 'Terrible things on both sides'. Sorry, which sides are you talking about here? Are you likening any crimes committed by Ukrainians to those committed by Russia? The scale makes any such comparison offensive.

We know this, we have learnt it time and again through history, so it is those that use their power to initiate war that must be ultimately held accountable for their decisions and actions.

Yes I agree.

But the discussions on what people wish for Russian soldiers (many, as pointed, out being conscripts) I think makes it important to ask for some reflection.

As previously stated, that has always been my stance too. Not all of the Russian soldiers are guilty of the crimes. An awful lot are though, and it's sickening. And I wouldn't like to see these crimes bundled in with 'yeah but all wars are bad'.

 

[sydney]

Didn't he have a gun? Didn't the enemy have guns?


It's sickening. But don't pretend that every single Russian combatant has done those things.

do some research into what the British Commando units did on d-day mate, if you can find it , my old mans service history in the commandos has an 18 month blank until he was sent to Palestine , it was all about stealth , the thinking was they couldn't parachute in with machine guns in the dark as too dangerous and unwieldy , they had service revolvers with 6 bullets , as many grenades as they could carry and 9 inch daggers , he only ever spoke about it once , i was so proud of him i cried , as i did when i met the remainder of his unit at his funeral , amazing people and not to be compared with the Russian troops that are supposedly raping children and bombing known civilian targets.

 

[Curious Orange]

Good question, I wonder how it could be different?



So, errrr, very different then.

In terms of scale, yes I totally agree. A lot of civilians died or were injured in Genoa too though, and the cathedral took a hit.

The point I'm (badly) trying to make is that should a person's view of the crews of the vessels involved in those actions really be so different? Is it just based on who is perceived to be on the 'right' side (and for the record it wasn't the Italians and it certainly isn't the Russians)?

I don't think we should wish ill on any defeated enemy. My Grandad never spoke about it, but he was present when Ark Royal sunk, I suspect witnessing that had quite an effect on him.

 

[sydney]

I don't think anyone killing another person in War is a " Hero "

Russia has to lose here. That much is certain and what many of them are doing is absolutely Criminal. However some of the Russian soldiers are 16 and 17 year old kids from rural parts of Russia who have only joined up because it's the only way of earning money in those rural parts of Russia.

It brings me to tears almost when I see what Old Men around the World do in sending young men to their deaths .

Even more will die and Ukraine has " Righteousness " on its side in this War but for me no one is a " Hero "

Everyone will have to live with this for years. I am absolutely horrified watching on TV. Heaven help anyone physical affected by it all

couldn't agree more, but repelling the Germans in the 1940's required a huge effort and in that way it was an heroic victory , i just can't help wondering what's next , the world has become a very odd place over the last 3 years or so , i mean it was mad enough before but weather , wars , covid.....ffs..?? what's next..?

 

[jakarta]

do some research into what the British Commando units did on d-day mate, if you can find it , my old mans service history in the commandos has an 18 month blank until he was sent to Palestine , it was all about stealth , the thinking was they couldn't parachute in with machine guns in the dark as too dangerous and unwieldy , they had service revolvers with 6 bullets , as many grenades as they could carry and 9 inch daggers , he only ever spoke about it once , i was so proud of him i cried , as i did when i met the remainder of his unit at his funeral , amazing people and not to be compared with the Russian troops that are supposedly raping children and bombing known civilian targets.

Absolute hardest ******* I ever met was Ernie Woodward, a Builder who did some work for my Dad at his Garage/Showroom - he had been a Commando and knew several ways of killing people without weapons. Amazing thing was he was about 5 foot 5 (but also about the same wide and had arms as big as your thighs).

Found out years later he also topped his Wife's Lover when he was demobbed in 1945, then took him up the Derbyshire Moors and buried him.

No one said a word about it, including his Wife. Different times to be sure...

 

[BLOCK F]

Absolute hardest ******* I ever met was Ernie Woodward, a Builder who did some work for my Dad at his Garage/Showroom - he had been a Commando and knew several ways of killing people without weapons. Amazing thing was he was about 5 foot 5 (but also about the same wide and had arms as big as your thighs).

Found out years later he also topped his Wife's Lover when he was demobbed in 1945, then took him up the Derbyshire Moors and buried him.

No one said a word about it, including his Wife. Different times to be sure...

Blimey, ‘don’t mess with Ernie’!

 

[highflyer]

Are you likening any crimes committed by Ukrainians to those committed by Russia? The scale makes any such comparison offensive..

For avoidance of doubt. No, I am not drawing any equivalence between Ukrainian and Russian actions.

 

[jcdenton08]

Blimey, ‘don’t mess with Ernie’!

The hardest mobster in the west

 

[jakarta]

Blimey, ‘don’t mess with Ernie’!

Amazingly Ernie was the third murderer I have known personally (and the only one who got away with it).

A Schoolmate (well Garry Lamb was never a mate as such but we were on nodding terms)

You knew something was going to happen in the future as he was not only a double hard ******* but he had that strange look in his eye that said I Don't Give a Shit.

He punched someone out outside a Pub and then for some reason ran over him several times in his car. Strangeways Time...

Also knew David Ashbrook (Motor Dealer like my late Dad). He took a shotgun to see his Lovers Husband. Apparently the first barrel missed and took the Porch roof off, it was the second that took his head off.

Having known him wouldn't have thought he would say Boo to Goose but once more Stangeways time. The victim's Wife had planned it all and she went down as well.

I realise this is all sounding like Midsomer Murders!

EDIT: Sorry I have taken this thread off course...

 

[rippleman]

How do you feel about those that followed orders to send missiles into heavily populated areas of Baghdad in March and April 2003? Missiles that killed some 7.000 civilians (as part of a conflict that was also justified on the back of deliberately constructed lies and a conflict that has been used by Russia to help justify it's invasion of Ukraine)?

I don't ask to discount the atrocities in Ukraine, but to support the argument that terrible things inevitably happen to people when leaders choose to take their countries to war. Terrible things on both sides.There may, occasionally, be necessary war. But there is no honourable war. There is no glorious war. And I do not believe there is war which does not result in atrocity. We know this, we have learnt it time and again through history, so it is those that use their power to initiate war that must be ultimately held accountable for their decisions and actions.

I apologise if this is the wrong post for this thread. I appreciate the understandable sensitivities for many of those contributing. But the discussions on what people wish for Russian soldiers (many, as pointed, out being conscripts) I think makes it important to ask for some reflection.

I have reflected.

The post you quote was in response to a tiny few who were defending the actions of Russian soldiers because they are only conscripts or they don't understand what they are doing and IMO that is BS. The Russian military are "following orders". My post points out that when it comes to genocide and crimes against humanity, "only following orders" is not a legitimate defence recognised by a war crimes tribunal.

You think there are "terrible things on both sides" in this war? Can you furnish legitimate press reports that Ukranian military forces are deliberately targetting Russian civilians? Or raping Russian women? The "terrible things" in this conflict are being perpetrated by one side only. And the Russians perpetrating those "terrible things" must be punished to the full extent. General or conscript private, it matters not.

Slava Ukraini!

 

[Spiros]

I have reflected.

The post you quote was in response to a tiny few who were defending the actions of Russian soldiers because they are only conscripts or they don't understand what they are doing and IMO that is BS. The Russian military are "following orders". My post points out that when it comes to genocide and crimes against humanity, "only following orders" is not a legitimate defence recognised by a war crimes tribunal.

You think there are "terrible things on both sides" in this war? Can you furnish legitimate press reports that Ukranian military forces are deliberately targetting Russian civilians? Or raping Russian women? The "terrible things" in this conflict are being perpetrated by one side only. And the Russians perpetrating those "terrible things" must be punished to the full extent. General or conscript private, it matters not.

Slava Ukraini!

From your response to my earlier post I guess I'm one of the 'tiny few' who you think are defending Russian actions - I'm not. What I am doing is pointing out that there are a significant number of young Russians who have been duped into a fight by their own leaders and don't want to be there. From what I've seen the raping and massacring of civilians has been the work of the more hardcore military, such as the troops from Chechnya or the Wagner group. The bigger conscript army seems to be mostly getting it's arse kicked all the way back up the road from Kyiv

There have been reports of some Russian units refusing to fight which is why they had to send senior officers closer to the action, resulting in a few Russian generals being killed. I'm glad the Ukrainians are winning. But let's not imagine for one minute that every single Russian soldier, sailor and airman is there willingly raping and pillaging their way across Ukraine. Or are you saying that every engineer, cook or medic that burned to death on that Russian warship deserved to die horribly because they were all committing genocide?

 

[portlock seagull]

From your response to my earlier post I guess I'm one of the 'tiny few' who you think are defending Russian actions - I'm not. What I am doing is pointing out that there are a significant number of young Russians who have been duped into a fight by their own leaders and don't want to be there. From what I've seen the raping and massacring of civilians has been the work of the more hardcore military, such as the troops from Chechnya or the Wagner group. The bigger conscript army seems to be mostly getting it's arse kicked all the way back up the road from Kyiv

There have been reports of some Russian units refusing to fight which is why they had to send senior officers closer to the action, resulting in a few Russian generals being killed. I'm glad the Ukrainians are winning. But let's not imagine for one minute that every single Russian soldier, sailor and airman is there willingly raping and pillaging their way across Ukraine. Or are you saying that every engineer, cook or medic that burned to death on that Russian warship deserved to die horribly because they were all committing genocide?

Of course not ‘every’ case. You can’t say that about anything or anyone really. A majority? Quite possibly. Russians have form, our values are totally at odds with and have been for centuries. Russians raped millions of German women and minors. Millions. Encouraged by their leaders. Not a few isolated instances, but millions. Russians have a very different mindset then we do, they’re several hundred years behind us socially.