Recruitment Agents

[Buttinhams]

I'm not in IT, but I know the guy that runs Penta Consulting (IT Recruitment Specialists) and they have an excellent reputation.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

does anyone on here have any experience of a company called fdm ? they are it recruiters

is that for overseas caterers ?

 

[bhaexpress]

catering recruitment arent they?

 

[maffew]

 

[beorhthelm]

Actually having been in IT for quite a few years I think you're being a bit harsh on some agencies.

yes, i probably am. as you will note from the first page this rant was born from a few particular recent experences. But they follow a pattern and while im sure there are some good recruiters, there seems to be an awful lot of short service. when you are looking for a job and dont hear back from interviews, told about jobs then dont recieve a spec or hear from them ever again, when a guy phones you two weeks after a first call, doesnt remember and asks if you are interested inthe same job then procedes to email asking where you have interviewd, you get a certain impression. of course the one that finds me a job will be great recruiter ever

 

[bhaexpress]

yes, i probably am. as you will note from the first page this rant was born from a few particular recent experences. But they follow a pattern and while im sure there are some good recruiters, there seems to be an awful lot of short service. when you are looking for a job and dont hear back from interviews, told about jobs then dont recieve a spec or hear from them ever again, when a guy phones you two weeks after a first call, doesnt remember and asks if you are interested inthe same job then procedes to email asking where you have interviewd, you get a certain impression. of course the one that finds me a job will be great recruiter ever

Sure, for example MSB, how do they stay in busness ? (Mark Goldberg, ex Palace chairman and now Bromley Town manager set them up). The people who work for them tend to be complete clowns. You have to accept though that you can find bad Recruitment Consultants in the same way you can find lousy accountants, crap solicitors, dangerous doctors and yes, people in IT who shouldn't be let loose with an abacus.

 

[beorhthelm]

then again... two phone calls with agents about jobs... yeah, great, fine, email your CV and we'll send a job spec back... hours later still no email. so what am i supposed to think? its all nice and matey on the phone but something happens within seconds of putting the phone down. do recruitment not have wrap time on thier phone systems?

 

[Skaville]

i acknowledge i dont know didnt i? but i have been involved in budget meetings and know a ball park for the budget allocated to a head... and the amount allowed for the agent cost was far more than the amount of of overhead from the actual salary involved. some firms might like to add office space but its a fixed cost they were paying before and do you take into account the extra head cost would reduce the pro-rata for every other head etc? its bogus, small companies (which is my experience) just dont work like that. you must know that half of a uni degree is filled with theoretical fluff that bears no relation to the real world? or put another way and apply common sence, do you really think a 40k developer is costing a company 100k?



if they want a specialied role filled, yes it would be difficult. if they want a beginner-intermediate or even generic senior role, whats the difference between HR bod sifting CVs off Jobsite+a dozen others or an agent doing the same thing? it seems that alot is little more than outsourced HR recruitment admin.



what im talking about is im just an average IT admin with not enough experience/skills to be in specialied area. I get calls from Computer People, Ashdown, Hayes, and other "specialised" IT recruiters and they dont know the first thing about IT. I get several emails every week offering senior PHP and Java developer jobs because they obviously get caught in a automated CV keyword search, when the most brief scan would show im not a developer (or even just better search terms).

Talk about round and round in circles. Right, I couldn't find much on the web about how you calculate the cost of an employee. There is an article here from the Boston Business Journal which covers what you should consider (yes, I know it's an American publication, aimed at entreprenuers and not the best example, but it's not an easy topic to find much out about.

http://web.mit.edu/e-club/hadzima/how-much-does-an-employee-cost.html

This is the important bit -

"Instead of figuring out each cost component separately you can develop some simple metrics. For example, one entrepreneur I talked to is in the engineering services business in which his people are billed on projects on a time and materials basis. The entrepreneur takes the employee’s base salary and multiplies it by 1.25 to cover employment taxes and benefits. She then multiplies that number by 1.75 to cover rent, equipment etc. Because some management personnel are needed and some of the employee time is spent in non-billable technology development, she multiplies that number by 1.25. She figures that for her professional engineering consulting business the fully functioning managed employee costs about 2.7 times the base salary. She has a different metric for planning the manufacturing side of her business. In both cases even though the metrics are simple and easy to apply it has taken her some time to really understand the cost components of her business segments in order to develop the metric. She notes although that her "rule of thumb" is helpful in planning rapid growth, like any rule of thumb the underlying assumptions need to be recalibrated periodically."

I could address the second part again, but I've done it three times. If you really cannot grasp the concept of using someone with a better breadth of knowledge and contacts I am wasting my time. Yes, if you have consistent turnover in an area you could think about doing it yourself, yet so few companies do. Why? Because recruitment consultants do a better job. It's basic economics. If there was no demand for agencies, they wouldn't exist, yet despite the technological changes in access to candidates in recent years, agencies still prosper.

Okay, final comment. You work in IT Administration, yet get loads of calls about PHP and Java development roles. Take the skills off your CV - they are not relevant to IT administration anyway.

 

[beorhthelm]

i can see both sides of the cost of staff thing now. but the tangent was really about the addition of an extra head, not the cost of staf on a all business costs/number of staff basis. if you want an extra IT admin at 35k you'll be given an allocation in your dept budget for 50k, so a HR admin will be budgeted similar in proportion. you can cost the office space and utilities etc but if there is capacity in the office this is a neutral cost. if you wnat to budget startup costs from scratch its different or if you want to charge someone.

so yeah, market forces would imply that recuritment agents are required. but ive just heard an opinion that this is because they are very good at selling and sell themselves as a great service when the reality is not so impressive. those making the strategic decision to outsource recruitment arent dealing with the issues. good marketing and sales pitch has us buying all sorts of stuff, doesnt mean its really needed. so well done for that.

maybe i should be looking for a job in recruitment?

 

[Skaville]

i can see both sides of the cost of staff thing now. but the tangent was really about the addition of an extra head, not the cost of staf on a all business costs/number of staff basis. if you want an extra IT admin at 35k you'll be given an allocation in your dept budget for 50k, so a HR admin will be budgeted similar in proportion. you can cost the office space and utilities etc but if there is capacity in the office this is a neutral cost. if you wnat to budget startup costs from scratch its different or if you want to charge someone.

so yeah, market forces would imply that recuritment agents are required. but ive just heard an opinion that this is because they are very good at selling and sell themselves as a great service when the reality is not so impressive. those making the strategic decision to outsource recruitment arent dealing with the issues. good marketing and sales pitch has us buying all sorts of stuff, doesnt mean its really needed. so well done for that.

maybe i should be looking for a job in recruitment?

:thud:

 

[beorhthelm]

we of course would never agree, im at the shit end of the stick and you are in the profession. i have to realise agents are something i have to live with. you have to realise theres a lot of tossers working in recruitment that give a very bad impression.

 

[Skaville]

we of course would never agree, im at the shit end of the stick and you are in the profession. i have to realise agents are something i have to live with. you have to realise theres a lot of tossers working in recruitment that give a very bad impression.

FFS! I admitted that in my first post on this thread! Listening really isn't your strong point is it?

I love the way that your still not able to bring yourself to say that even some recruitment consultants do a good job. It's just not worth my time contributing to this thread.

 

[beorhthelm]

dispite the fact that i acknowledge the place for recruitment consultants in some areas, or the use of non-all inclusive terms? anyway you contribution wasnt required, though has been interesting. i was ranting and at most expected someone to maybe susgest some good ones. i note only one has.

 

[Skaville]

dispite the fact that i acknowledge the place for recruitment consultants in some areas, or the use of non-all inclusive terms? anyway you contribution wasnt required, though has been interesting. i was ranting and at most expected someone to maybe susgest some good ones. i note only one has.

I still can't understand half of the drivel you post. I hope you proof read your covering letter/CV.

My contribution wasn't required? Well actually, I take offence to being called a tosser on multiple occaisions. Apologies if I chose to defend myself. I'm sure you would too. It might have been nice if you had had the decency to retract it, but ho hum. I have learnt enough about you over the past few days to not value your opinion.

I do wish you luck in finding a job and suggest you have another look through this thread. Several IT agencies have been recommended (although we established that maths is not your strong point what seems a long, long time ago).

 

[beorhthelm]

ok here is my retraction: Jimmy Saville (and The gurb) are not tossers. there may be others who are not tossers too. glad we've settled that, after all you have given the issue more attention and responce than i have received on many of my job enquires.

now, having trashed a perfectly good ranting, and highlighted the poor quality of my maths, CV writing and reading comprehension, i would appreciate all those recommendations to be highlighted.

 

[Skaville]

Penta Consulting, Plan Net, Computer People, Hayes and Mission. Someone also mentioned Tate but I think they are high street.

I would add PSD and FDM could be worth a crack if only because they are local. Try the Wired Sussex website and I'm not sure what sectors Michael Page cover in Brighton, but they are very good.

 

[beorhthelm]

So i've just found out direct from an employer that a job i was turned down for was resolved "quite a while ago", yet the agent, kept me thinking this job was on for two f***ing weeks i was "in with a good chance" or "the prefered candidate". now i find thats all bullshit. not only that, but i have to go through the agent for another postion the company has which i found on their website, as they cant directly recruit me for a year.

What a tosser.

 

[bhaexpress]

Penta Consulting, Plan Net, Computer People, Hayes and Mission. Someone also mentioned Tate but I think they are high street.

I would add PSD and FDM could be worth a crack if only because they are local. Try the Wired Sussex website and I'm not sure what sectors Michael Page cover in Brighton, but they are very good.

Sorry but NOT repeat NOT Plan Net, they are total shit. They employ people who aren't good enough for Computacenter which should tell you what utter turd they are.

 

[beorhthelm]

genuine query for mr Saville...

why do some agents ask you to come in to meet them? whats the purpose behind it? some say its because they are doing first line interview, but my experience has been they just ask you the same questions as they do on the phone. It doesnt seem a very worthwhile exercise for either side.

and while we are peering into the machine of the recruitment industry, whats the deal with some not giving the name of a company. some will before they even tell you what the job is, others will scrub it from job specs and only tell you if you interview. but then they ask where you've applied and interviewd so they dont clash (yeah... know the real reason), but i dont always know where my CV's been sent.

 

[Skaville]

.

genuine query for mr Saville...

why do some agents ask you to come in to meet them? whats the purpose behind it? some say its because they are doing first line interview, but my experience has been they just ask you the same questions as they do on the phone. It doesnt seem a very worthwhile exercise for either side.

and while we are peering into the machine of the recruitment industry, whats the deal with some not giving the name of a company. some will before they even tell you what the job is, others will scrub it from job specs and only tell you if you interview. but then they ask where you've applied and interviewd so they dont clash (yeah... know the real reason), but i dont always know where my CV's been sent.

Oh god. Will this ever stop? If you REALLY need this stuff you can PM me without boring the entire board.

Face to face interviews will obviously tell you a lot about someone especially about how they present themselves and therefore how they are likely to present themselves in interview. You will be surprised how many people sound great on the phone and then arrive with twenty facial piercings, a Donald Duck tie etc. It also gives you more time to investigate the strengths and weaknesses of a candidate in a quieter environment with properly committed time.

The other scenario is if they are offering a manged service to the client. I believe one of the local agencies (Adecco?) has this type of agreement with Amex. This may well be the formal first round interview and very mucha part of the comapnies recruitment process.

If a recruitment consultant wants to dedicate their time to seeing you face to face it's usually a good sign - even the worst recruitment consultants won't waste their time seeing someone they are not going to be able to help.

The company name thing - advertising a role with a company name has difficult implications from a marketing/branding perspective. You will need to get any branded advertising apporved by the client. I had this with a global IT company and it was incredibly slow.

Named (or branded) vacancies will only occur when the client has agreed to work with the agent exclusively or paid upfront. The reason for this is that the agency will suffer two main threats from named vacancies -

1. The competition swarms all over them and targets your clients
2. Candidates may approach the client direct, meaning you don't get a fee

Once you apply, recruitment consultants are still wary, as some of the more charlatan agencies out there will call up pretending to be candidates and try to get the name of your client. You also find that candidates can be somewhat loose tongued when speaking to your competitors.

If you want to find out who find out who the end client is you could try Google searching some of the company information or specifc requirements. If the consultant is lazy it might well match with the clients website, enabling you to bypass the agency altogether.