Pro-hunt demonstrators.

[Bwian]

Echoing Juan Albion's point, if the government decided to close down all football clubs because a large percentage of the voting public didn't like it for reasons that we felt they didn't understand, we'd all be up in arms and rightly so.

Isn't there a fundamental difference between the 2 sports though? (And I struggle to classify fox hunting/hunting with hounds as sport). In football both sides have an equal chance of winning the game, both sides-win or lose-finish the game alive and afterwards both sides enjoy a beer and food together (usually). In fox hunting/hunting with dogs the loser has a prolonged period of extreme terror being chased by a large pack of baying dogs, followed by a bunch of people on horseback blowing hunting horns. The winners tear the loser apart.

I think you need another sport to use as an example.

Also, and we have to be brutally honest here, the majority of the British public do not support their cruel 'sport'. The pro-hunt lobby claims 59% support them which is total bollocks-they must use the same PR company as the NIMBYs at Falmer. It is truly a minority pastime whereas football is our national sport and has huge numbers of supporters from every walk of life, in just about every town and city in the land-although you'd never know it in certain places in Sussex for crying out loud. Foxhunting caters to an eliteist group-there may be oiks employed by them but it is mainly for the group of people who consider themselves above the majority iin the country. You don't get, for example, 20 million people watching fox hunting on tv do you?

They have said they will now embark on a campaign of civil disability until they get their way. Look you muppets: Parliament has passed a law that upsets you-tough shit! It is the law. Break the law and end up in jail-please! Watch out when you drop your soap in the showers though....it won't be a fox trying to get up there trying to hide from the hounds

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Echoing Juan Albion's point, if the government decided to close down all football clubs because a large percentage of the voting public didn't like it for reasons that we felt they didn't understand, we'd all be up in arms and rightly so.

and come the next election we'd make sure they were kicked out. That's democracy. It is perfect timing for the hunt people - an election is around the corner. Now we will find whether it is an empty vessel.

 

[Rangdo]

Isn't there a fundamental difference between the 2 sports though? (And I struggle to classify fox hunting/hunting with hounds as sport). In football both sides have an equal chance of winning the game, both sides-win or lose-finish the game alive and afterwards both sides enjoy a beer and food together (usually). In fox hunting/hunting with dogs the loser has a prolonged period of extreme terror being chased by a large pack of baying dogs, followed by a bunch of people on horseback blowing hunting horns. The winners tear the loser apart.

In football both sides choose to play the game as well. I don't think the fox chooses to be torn to shreds by a pack of dogs.

 

[caz99]

Why dont we have bull-fighting in England?

its now actually dropping in a lot of parts of spain. its just not happening everywhere anymore

 

[Zeitgeist]

and come the next election we'd make sure they were kicked out. That's democracy. It is perfect timing for the hunt people - an election is around the corner. Now we will find whether it is an empty vessel.

Good point. Some horsey maiden was bleating on one of the news channels night, this decision would cost Labour the next election. Erm, really Felicity?? The arrogance of these people is unbelievable. They are a bloodthirsty minority who have just had their pastime made illegal. Sure, they may try and disrupt the democratic process, but only by illegal means. Come the next election, we'll find out just how much foxhunting means to the average person in the street.

 

[Bwian]

I'm nowhere near to being an animal rights activist, am never likely to become a vegetarian but I do believe that it's time these people realise that foxes and stags are not their playthings. The modern world is no place for their brand of barbarism-it is a throwback to the middle ages. Come to think about it-so are most pro-hunt supporters.

 

[Lokki 7]

I'm with you Bwian. Killing animals for fun is no longer acceptable. This is the 21st century FFS. Way of life my arse, it's WRONG. End of.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Playing the devil's advocate again (for some reason):

I have a friend who doesn't like or understand football. The last time she went near a football match, it was after a game at the Goldstone against Oxford about 20 years ago. She had to go down behind the East Terrace as the fans were coming out. There was some bother and what she saw was a Brighton fan repeatedly bashing an Oxford fan's head into the pavement. None of the other Brighton fans were doing anything to stop it. She was shocked and appalled.

Would she be right to assume from that moment that all football fans are either vicious or immune to violence? Bear in mind that all she has seen of football since that time has been stories that make the news such as Dublin, Heysel, the stabbings in Turkey etc., since she refuses to go anywhere near a ground again. If she had her way, football would probably be banned.

Not ALL football fans want to go around kicking the crap out of eachother.

All foxhunters want to kill a fox.

 

[Schrödinger's Toad]

I still want to know who they polled to get that "59% of the public are against a ban" claim since public opinion generally is against fox hunting.

I seem to remember they asked people whether they a) opposed a ban, b) supported a ban, or c) advocated a partial ban/ liscencing system. 59% of their (countryside dwelling) population voted for either a) or c), with the Countryside Alliance presented as "59% are against a ban", which hardly presents a accurate picture.

I'd relish a referendum, as I believe it would overwhelmingly show support for a ban, which might finally shut up the braying idiots.

 

[Highfields Seagull]

I can't see how a government that is shitting itself about the next election (because of a phoney war) forcing something through parliament is an example of democracy.

The Government didn't force it through parliament, it was a free vote. The democratically elected House of Commons forced it through after being blocked by the undemocratic and outdated House of Lords. Looks like democracy in action to me.

 

[Meade's Ball]

The woman on the news this morning said there would be peaceful disobedience. They obviously believe that having an animal torn apart is a peaceful leisure pursuit.

 

[beorhthelm]

...In fox hunting/hunting with dogs the loser has a prolonged period of extreme terror being chased by a large pack of baying dogs, followed by a bunch of people on horseback blowing hunting horns. The winners tear the loser apart.

I like the way you assume the hunt always get the fox.

On a more interesting point, it has come to my attention that the Bill as passed has a small, but important exclusion: you may still hunt with two dogs. I wonder how many dogs it takes to practice and enjoy the sport of hare coarsing?

And people say this has nothing to do with class.

 

[3gulls]

Don't they realise there's more important things going on in the world at the moment?

Indeed there are! So why did The House of Commons put so much effort into banning their sport?

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

I like the way you assume the hunt always get the fox.

This confuses me. On the one hand it is the most effective method of fox control. On the other the hunt rarely catch the fox.

 

[Gully]

I have never been pro-hunt, purely based on the principle that I feel it is wrong to gain pleasure from causing un-neccesary suffering to an animal. I grew up in the countryside and my family kept chickens as pets, on a number of occasions we lost some to the fox, I can accept that these animals do cause damage to farmers livestock and feel that they must retain a right to kill something that may be percieved as a pest. Is it necessary to chase an animal over hill and dale pursued by a pack of baying hounds and hunters, definitely not.

In the last century we banned slavery, stopped sending 8 year old boys up chimmneys and gave women the vote, because the situation that existed before was morally wrong. Look at it from a different point of view, if you were trying to pass legislation to legalise hunting with dogs from a position where it was unlawful do you think any modern government would try to do so, I don't reckon that they would because they would be lambasted in the press and the polls for being cruel.

The item on last nights news showing the hooray brigade protesting at Windsor does nothing to further the pro-hunting lobby. If they wanted to further their argument it should be presented in clear consise tones to the general public, parading a group of loud, drunk upper-class inbreds to further your cause just gives fuel to the anti-brigade.

 

[Hannibal smith]

This confuses me. On the one hand it is the most effective method of fox control. On the other the hunt rarely catch the fox.

That for me is exactly the point. If the Pro-hunt brigade came out and said 'We want to continue hunting because we enjoy it, its our pastime'' then I would have more sympathy. What we get instead are a lseries of arguments that, quite frankly, insult my intelligence.

Fox hunting is not very effective at controlling numbers (more foxes are run over by cars)
They argue the hounds would have to be killed, when they kill them anyway once their effectivenesss to the kill is deminished.
There is an argument that the friendly fox hunt disposes of dead animal carcasses in the same way that a milk float delivers milk. This is simply not true as this is done by a professional body.

 

[Dropkick Turnip]

The Government didn't force it through parliament, it was a free vote. The democratically elected House of Commons forced it through after being blocked by the undemocratic and outdated House of Lords. Looks like democracy in action to me.

I thought that democracy was when everybody had a say in the matter. Perhaps it's my fault for not understanding the process properly but isn't the House of Commons and The Government the same thing? Wasn't it MPs that forced the vote through last night. Aren't they "The Government"? And if not then who is?

 

[smudge]

I'm not having the argument, "Peoples livelihoods depend on hunting."
That's bollocks, people will still ride their horses.

If peoples livelihoods were ever an issue in any debate, we'd still have a mining industry. I think a few more jobs went with mine closures than will go with the loss of few kennels!

 

[Highfields Seagull]

I thought that democracy was when everybody had a say in the matter. Perhaps it's my fault for not understanding the process properly but isn't the House of Commons and The Government the same thing? Wasn't it MPs that forced the vote through last night. Aren't they "The Government"? And if not then who is?

Roughly speaking:

The Government is Tony Blair and his cabinet and ministers. As leader of the party with the majority he is able to form the Government. Therefore most Labour MPs are not part of the Government.

The House of Commons is all MPs of all parties.

In normal Goverment legislation the politiacl parties use "whips" to make their MPs vote in line with the party leadership. The fox hunting vote was a free vote in which MPs could vote according to their personal preferences without pressure from party whips.

Our political system is a representative democracy in which we elect MPs to represent us at parliament. If you don't like the way they represent you, you can vote them out at the next election.

Consulting everyone over every issue would be a true democracy, however can you imagine if we had a national referendum on every issue debate by parliament? Nothing would ever get done. This may have worked in small greek city states (when not everyone had a say anyway) but is not practical for modern nation states - hence representative democracy.

 

[Easy 10]

Dunno about you, but I for one am thoroughly looking forward to seeing some of those chinless twats doing time for flouting this law when it comes in. They seem to think they have the right to pick and choose what laws they should abide by, and as they disagree with the ban on hunting, they'll simply decide to ignore it.

Can't wait to see Tarquin Fucktard-Smythe being led away for a spell in chokey, hopefully where some muscle-bound tattood sex-starved monster will tear his posh bitch a new arsehole.