[Football] Penalty taking.

[Uh_huh_him]

I cannot stand this phrase. It is NOT a lottery at all.

Ok It isn't a lottery like drawing straws is a lottery.
But the variables aren't as simple as practice makes perfect or "just smash it in the top corner"
Knowing who is going to, or likely to, **** up at the crucial moment, is unknowable.

My point regarding the Swiss was precisely this.
After seeing them against France I thought they were going to knock Spain out easily.
Similarly with Jorginho, I thought he would score and win the trophy.

But I take the point regarding Germany.

 

[One Love]

We don't tend to like the concept of learning things in football in this country, do we? Southgate has had two tournaments now and clearly learnt from the first one, and will now have learnt from the second one. But a lot of people seem to think that rather than taking these lessons into a third tournament, it would be better to throw somebody new in and make them have to start learning from scratch again. It's an odd concept, I think.

I agree with most of your post.

However what makes you think that Southgate learnt from the first tournament?

I thought the final proved that he hadn't learnt from the Croatia semi-final loss. He made the same mistake of playing to the opposition's strength in central midfield.

A agree he should carry us forward to Qatar but I think he needs help. He is no Mancini and he is not a brave manager.

 

[Swansman]

Apparently, penalties were practiced continually in the training camp plus they had psychological sessions where they talked about "owning the process."

We then scored 2/5 in a shoot out plus Kane cocked one up vs. Denmark but was fortunate the rebound dropped straight in the middle of the goal.

All of this suggests you might as well forget all that guff and just walk up, leather it and hope for the best. Can't do much worse.

Its difficult to be oblivious enough to do that. If Bruce Springsteen feels he needs to take a shit in the middle of a 60 000 concert, the easiest decision would be to just do it on stage. But it would also be the most difficult decision.

I still think if Rashford’s went in, England end up winning.

I think if Harry Kane scored a hattrick, England would have won. He didnt though, much like Rashford didnt score his pen.

 

[sydney]

It was decided before the game who was taking them. What are Sterling and Grealish supposed to do, overrule the manager? Grealish has taken one professional penalty in his life and missed it. Sterling has missed his last 3. Henderson missed his last 2 for England.

Sterling had a pretty average back end of the season , Henderson was out since February , Rashford will now undergo shoulder surgery and be out for 8 to 10 wks , Grealish wanted to take on and was knocked back , it's all history now , we had a decent tournament but came up short when it mattered after an unbelievable start to the final , undone by a cynical Italian team and their superior manager......lessons learnt for next time, we'll come back stronger for the experience no doubt.

 

[Commander]

Ok It isn't a lottery like drawing straws is a lottery.
But the variables aren't as simple as practice makes perfect or "just smash it in the top corner"
Knowing who is going to, or likely to, **** up at the crucial moment, is unknowable.

My point regarding the Swiss was precisely this.
After seeing them against France I thought they were going to knock Spain out easily.
Similarly with Jorginho, I thought he would score and win the trophy.

But I take the point regarding Germany.

I guess what I mean is that you can stack the odds in your favour, and I think England have done this. You can get lucky in a shoot out, and you can get unlucky. But if you plan properly you should be able to win 2 out of 3, which is what England have done.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

not going down that route ....its fairly obvious....also DCL on the bench and im sure Henderson , Sterling and Grealish are more than capable of putting a penalty away .....but no , let's throw the 19 year old kid under the bus....very poor from Palace Gaz.

Somebody more interested than I am might have more accurate numbers, but as far as I can tell:

Henderson's scored 1 penalty in his entire career, and has missed his last 2.
Sterling has apparently only scored 1 in his (somewhat shorter) PL career, and once missed 2 within 5 minutes for Man City - https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...news/man-city-penalty-taker-sterling-17481749

Grealish hasn't scored any as far as I can tell.

They might have done better, (as it turns out, they couldn't have done any worse) but it's fair to assume there are good reasons why none of those players regularly take penalties for their club sides

 

[herecomesaregular]

Just think because we've been a bit unlucky in penalties at major tournaments that the English are over obsessive about them, more so than other countries. The Swiss comparison mentioned above is a good one, it can really be as predictable as a toss of a coin. Would much prefer we went for it in ET, replaced Kane and Sterling with Grealish and DCL at 90 mins.

edit - and what was an injured and low on confidence Rashford even doing there?

 

[Bry Nylon]

Its difficult to be oblivious enough to do that. If Bruce Springsteen feels he needs to take a shit in the middle of a 60 000 concert, the easiest decision would be to just do it on stage. But it would also be the most difficult decision.

Well, yes. But at least if it was in the middle of "Born to Run" then at least it would bring a whole new meaning to the lyric.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that there is a balance between being mentally prepared to undertake a task that every fibre in your body tells you you should be running away from - and 'over-thinking' so that you end up freezing or making a big error of judgement.

I think the whole "owning the process" stuff can lead to over-thinking the situation and everything surrounding it when it should be about simply flicking into auto-pilot and executing the task the same way you have done in training countless times.

That big, long, long pause Rashford took between the ref's whistle and striking the ball indicated that he was over-thinking. It was agonising and not surprising the poor bloke hit the post.

 

[Commander]

Well, yes. But at least if it was in the middle of "Born to Run" then at least it would bring a whole new meaning to the lyric.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that there is a balance between being mentally prepared to undertake a task that every fibre in your body tells you you should be running away from - and 'over-thinking' so that you end up freezing or making a big error of judgement.

I think the whole "owning the process" stuff can lead to over-thinking the situation and everything surrounding it when it should be about simply flicking into auto-pilot and executing the task.

Which is kind of the point I was making about having a 19 year old taking them. If I'd have taken a penalty in a world cup at 19 I would have assumed I was going to score, and not worried too much about it. If I took one now I'd be fretting about it for the whole game before, thinking about people in the pubs and bars and living rooms all over the country, imagining the fallout that would happen if I missed it, and then change my mind about where to put it 8 times in the run up and then smash it into row Z.

 

[herecomesaregular]

I agree with most of your post.

However what makes you think that Southgate learnt from the first tournament?

I thought the final proved that he hadn't learnt from the Croatia semi-final loss. He made the same mistake of playing to the opposition's strength in central midfield.

agree he should carry us forward to Qatar but I think he needs help. He is no Mancini and he is not a brave manager.

....with his in-game management, imho. The tactical decisions made before ko by him/him and his team were all shown to be excellent decisions, including a brilliant first 20 mins versus Italy. I really thought we would smash them. Mancini then made changes and we did not react well to them all game. I wonder if he is getting the right support in-game or whether he is ignoring it or he's just a sheep in headlights?

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Its difficult to be oblivious enough to do that. If Bruce Springsteen feels he needs to take a shit in the middle of a 60 000 concert, the easiest decision would be to just do it on stage. But it would also be the most difficult decision.



I think if Harry Kane scored a hattrick, England would have won. He didnt though, much like Rashford didnt score his pen.

I get your point, ‘if my granny had balls she’d be my granddad’ etc.

However, in the case of Rashford’s penalty we’re talking about being inches away from glory. It’s a scenario that is very conceivable, unlike Kane scoring a hattrick.

I just think it’s an interesting point that if a team goes a goal ahead in a penalty shootout with two penalties to go for both sides, the mental pressure on the side trailing is much bigger and therefore they are much more likely to lose.

I should probably stop dwelling on it though.

 

[vagabond]

We don't tend to like the concept of learning things in football in this country, do we? Southgate has had two tournaments now and clearly learnt from the first one, and will now have learnt from the second one. But a lot of people seem to think that rather than taking these lessons into a third tournament, it would be better to throw somebody new in and make them have to start learning from scratch again. It's an odd concept, I think.

There’s undoubtedly a bit of this. Look at the piss taking our own GP got here from his critics for saying “We’ll learn from this” after games.

It’s a funny response because it’s a core of self improvement. Maybe it’s an English macho attitude as needing to learn is seen (by some) as a weakness.

 

[rippleman]

What can't be overlooked is that 60% of our penalty takers who are paid many millions a year were incapable of scoring from 12 yards out. We could probably randomly pick 3 NSCers and one at least would hit the onion bag. I'm not inclined to treat the penalty missers as heroes. I feel totally let down.

Pickford was the hero making two brilliant saves to give us an excellent chance of winning.

And then we blew it.

 

[vagabond]

Apparently, penalties were practiced continually in the training camp plus they had psychological sessions where they talked about "owning the process."

We then scored 2/5 in a shoot out plus Kane cocked one up vs. Denmark but was fortunate the rebound dropped straight in the middle of the goal.

All of this suggests you might as well forget all that guff and just walk up, leather it and hope for the best. Can't do much worse.

Honestly I do think the penalty taking method by a few wasn’t optimal. The staggering runs add an additional layer of complexity that I’m not sure helps. Additionally it gives more meta game to the goal keeper who will stagger in response.

Will be fascinating to see if Southgate changes that and if we see the staggers again.

Myself, as a non professional, if I were taking one in a high pressure situation I would do a standard run up and hit it as hard as I could down the middle or thereabouts so I’d be assured it’s on target. But easy to say.

 

[zefarelly]

I've taken penalties and scored . . . . don't recall missing TBH ( but you wouldn't)

I remember the REMF game when we missed some . . .if memory serves a 'senior' player hit the bar . .

I didn't get to take one, but would never have fannied about. more likely put the keeper in the net had he attempted to stop it Stuart Pearce style. . . You need to be either psychologically strong, or an emotional vacuum when it comes to penalties. Which probably explains why slabhead scored his so emphatically.

Dicking about with them is a sackable offence in my book.

 

[The Optimist]

Even Matt Le Tissier had one saved, but 47 of 48 penalties isn’t bad…

Anyone know (without cheating) who saved his “missed” spot kick?

I’m sure someone’s already answered, but Mark Crossley?

 

[Commander]

What can't be overlooked is that 60% of our penalty takers who are paid many millions a year were incapable of scoring from 12 yards out. We could probably randomly pick 3 NSCers and one at least would hit the onion bag. I'm not inclined to treat the penalty missers as heroes. I feel totally let down.

Pickford was the hero making two brilliant saves to give us an excellent chance of winning.

And then we blew it.

What absolute nonsense. An international goalkeeper would save 100 out of 100 penalties from NSCers.

The 'millions of pounds' comment is just jealousy, and completely irrelevant. Apart from anything else, the players donate their match fees for international games to charity.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Some people are just not good at taking penalties. I don't really understand it, but it is what it is. The job of the management is to identify them, and keep them off the list.

I know that us mere mortals can't begin to appreciate the pressure of all those eyes on them, but the process is such a simple one, and so completely repeatable.

In my own playing days, I scored 26 of 28 (yes I was sad enough to keep a record), and genuinely the ones in front of a relatively big crowd were no different to the ones in front of three people on a parks pitch. All put where I wanted them. Never any second guessing. Never make any consideration of who the keeper is, or what he is doing. I do think that bodyshape is massively important, and often overlooked. I'd guess that at least 20 of those 26 penalties, the keeper went the wrong way, without me consciously trying to trick him. That can't be a coincidence.

Not in an actual match, but I scored one at the Amex in front of 15,000 or so, with £500 riding on it.


And one, to win REMF at the Dripping Pan, in front of 1,000 people, which in relative terms, was massively 'important'.

 

[Commander]

What absolute nonsense. An international goalkeeper would save 100 out of 100 penalties from NSCers.

Some people are just not good at taking penalties. I don't really understand it, but it is what it is. The job of the management is to identify them, and keep them off the list.

I know that us mere mortals can't begin to appreciate the pressure of all those eyes on them, but the process is such a simple one, and so completely repeatable.

In my own playing days, I scored 26 of 28 (yes I was sad enough to keep a record), and genuinely the ones in front of a relatively big crowd were no different to the ones in front of three people on a parks pitch. All put where I wanted them. Never any second guessing. Never make any consideration of who the keeper is, or what he is doing. I do think that bodyshape is massively important, and often overlooked. I'd guess that at least 20 of those 26 penalties, the keeper went the wrong way, without me consciously trying to trick him. That can't be a coincidence.

Not in an actual match, but I scored one at the Amex in front of 15,000 or so, with £500 riding on it.


And this one, which in relative terms, was massively 'important'.

99 out of 100 then.

 

[herecomesaregular]

Some people are just not good at taking penalties. I don't really understand it, but it is what it is. The job of the management is to identify them, and keep them off the list.

I know that us mere mortals can't begin to appreciate the pressure of all those eyes on them, but the process is such a simple one, and so completely repeatable.

In my own playing days, I scored 26 of 28 (yes I was sad enough to keep a record), and genuinely the ones in front of a relatively big crowd were no different to the ones in front of three people on a parks pitch. All put where I wanted them. Never any second guessing. Never make any consideration of who the keeper is, or what he is doing. I do think that bodyshape is massively important, and often overlooked. I'd guess that at least 20 of those 26 penalties, the keeper went the wrong way, without me consciously trying to trick him. That can't be a coincidence.

Not in an actual match, but I scored one at the Amex in front of 15,000 or so, with £500 riding on it.


And one, to win REMF at the Dripping Pan, in front of 1,000 people, which in relative terms, was massively 'important'.

Laughable comparisons.