Penalty Kicks are not punishment

[Acker79]

I've decided to post some of the arguments/comments that annoy me when I hear them on football programmes. This is my first, I may post more if something annoys me (like Chris Kamara spending years saying "if you raise your arm in the box, you risk conceding a penalty" then suddenly last weekend he discovered the rule book and suddenly talks about intent just so he can criticise the refs).

So often, too often, I hear commentators and "expert" analysts talk about how so and so shouldn't be sent off because they awarded a penalty kick, and the penalty is punishment enough.

The thing is, the penalty isn't punishment at all.

If I steal your car, go for a little joyride, then get caught, is me having to give you back your car my punishment?

A penalty is given when you have a god chance of scoring or a very promising position (i.e. in the penalty box) unlawfully taken from you by an opponent. The penalty kick just gives that back to you, it gives you back your car, so to speak.

The player then needs to be punished for breaking the laws of the game.

 

[clippedgull]

The player then needs to be punished for breaking the law.

Too bloody right.

They should be birched in the centre circle.

 

[Whitterz]

If a player has impeded upon another player who has a reasonable goal scoring opportunity, then that player commiting the foul should be cautioned, or if serious, removed from the field of play.

That is the way I have always thought of it. A penalty is not a punishment, because there is a 50/50 chance of a goal being scored. If the penalty is saved, then it isn't really a punishment. Dismissal from the pitch is a punishent, as the team is reduced to 10 men, giving the opposing team a one man advantage.

 

[HseagullsH]

If a player has impeded upon another player who has a reasonable goal scoring opportunity, then that player commiting the foul should be cautioned, or if serious, removed from the field of play.

That is the way I have always thought of it. A penalty is not a punishment, because there is a 50/50 chance of a goal being scored. If the penalty is saved, then it isn't really a punishment. Dismissal from the pitch is a punishent, as the team is reduced to 10 men, giving the opposing team a one man advantage.

There is a greater chance that 50/50

 

[Whitterz]

Depends which way you look at it. Its 50/50 by way in which the penalty will be either scored or saved.

 

[Acker79]

Depends which way you look at it. Its 50/50 by way in which the penalty will be either scored or saved.

or missed...

either the taker gets it on target or he doesn't. That's 50-50. It's also 50-50 if it's on target if it'll be saved on not. So, 3 possibilities: it's missed, it's on target and saved, or it's on target and not saved. 66.67% of not scoring, in crude terms. But not every incident that results in a penalty would have led to a goal.

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

or missed...

either the taker gets it on target or he doesn't. That's 50-50. It's also 50-50 if it's on target if it'll be saved on not. So, 3 possibilities: it's missed, it's on target and saved, or it's on target and not saved. 66.67% of not scoring, in crude terms. But not every incident that results in a penalty would have led to a goal.

Superbly confident explanation and completely inaccurate.

The 50:50 proposition is incorrect in the first place. The penalty taker will either score or not score. In the same way that a light is either on or not on. That is an either or situation - there are two outcomes but that does not reflect the probability of a player scoring.

You are also correct that if the shot is on target it will either be saved or not saved, but again it is not 50:50, it is either or.

So the shot will be on target or not.
If the shot is on target it will either score or be saved.

But neither of those options are likely to be 50:50.

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

Oh, and by the way, if the ref gives a penalty it was definitely and without a shadow of doubt a foul in the area otherwise why would the policeman, I mean referee, have given it?

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

One of, if not THE ONLY good thing about Carlos Sultana Sports is that they get whatshisface the ex professional referee's opinion on decisions. It does make it easier to see why they make decisions and what the exact rules are, instead of having ex players like Andy Gray, Chris Kamara etc giving biased and often wrong definitions of the law.

 

[Icy Gull]

Sin bins are the way forward, instant retribution against the player and his team. Works a treat in rugby and hockey.

 

[Acker79]

Superbly confident explanation and completely inaccurate.

The 50:50 proposition is incorrect in the first place. The penalty taker will either score or not score. In the same way that a light is either on or not on. That is an either or situation - there are two outcomes but that does not reflect the probability of a player scoring.

You are also correct that if the shot is on target it will either be saved or not saved, but again it is not 50:50, it is either or.

So the shot will be on target or not.
If the shot is on target it will either score or be saved.

But neither of those options are likely to be 50:50.

Rm... I'm not entirely sure where you think I went wrong. I was agreeing with the guy who said it isn't 50-50.

I said it was in very crude terms. But you are looking at it from one point of view. You are looking at it with respect to whether there is a goal or not. IT isn't that simple.

A miss is not the same as a save. Although both result in no goal, one means the taker did all he could, one means the taker failed.

My 66.67% thing was that, in crude terms there are 3 outcomes of a penalty: saved, scored, missed.

If he saves to his lower left, it's a save, no goal, if he saves to his right it's a save, no goal. The outcomes are the same. Like I said, very crude.

Of course it's not accurate figures, I don't have statistics, I don't have player percentages, there are other factors to take into consideration including some players waiting for the keeper to move, thus increasing their chances of scoring if they can keep it on target.

But in very crude terms, there are three outcomes to a penalty: scored, saved, missed. One of those three results in a goal.

Crude? Yes. Completely inaccurate? Absolutely not. Simplistic view? Sure.

 

[Gritt23]

then suddenly last weekend he discovered the rule book

Nothing annoys me more than "experts" in the studio who simply do not know the rules. These people are being paid handsomely for their opinion, and I think the very least we should expect of them is a knowledge of the laws of game.

 

[Seagull Stew]

Rm... I'm not entirely sure where you think I went wrong. I was agreeing with the guy who said it isn't 50-50.

I said it was in very crude terms. But you are looking at it from one point of view. You are looking at it with respect to whether there is a goal or not. IT isn't that simple.

A miss is not the same as a save. Although both result in no goal, one means the taker did all he could, one means the taker failed.

My 66.67% thing was that, in crude terms there are 3 outcomes of a penalty: saved, scored, missed.

If he saves to his lower left, it's a save, no goal, if he saves to his right it's a save, no goal. The outcomes are the same. Like I said, very crude.

Of course it's not accurate figures, I don't have statistics, I don't have player percentages, there are other factors to take into consideration including some players waiting for the keeper to move, thus increasing their chances of scoring if they can keep it on target.

But in very crude terms, there are three outcomes to a penalty: scored, saved, missed. One of those three results in a goal.

Crude? Yes. Completely inaccurate? Absolutely not. Simplistic view? Sure.

When I walk across the road, technically I can either be hit by a car or not hit by a car. Does this mean every time I cross the road I have a 50% chance of being run over?

 

[blue and white army]

There is a greater chance that 50/50

Depends on who is taking it Gareth Southgate the odds would be stacked against him 15/85 :thud:

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I think it is 10 out of 11 penalties are scored.

pen⋅al⋅ty   [pen-l-tee] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1. a punishment imposed or incurred for a violation of law or rule.
2. a loss, forfeiture, suffering, or the like, to which one subjects oneself by nonfulfillment of some obligation.
3. something that is forfeited, as a sum of money.
4. a disadvantage imposed upon one of the competitors or upon one side for infraction of the rules of a game, sport, etc.
5. consequence or disadvantage attached to any action, condition, etc.

So it is a punishment.

 

[tainan]

When I walk across the road, technically I can either be hit by a car or not hit by a car. Does this mean every time I cross the road I have a 50% chance of being run over?

You're only considering the chance of being hit by a car. Add in the 50/50 chance that a bus will hit you, and the same again for a truck, and its far more sensible to stay where you are.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I've seen England take part in a number of penalty shoot-outs. Trust me, they are punishment.

 

[Seagull Stew]

You're only considering the chance of being hit by a car. Add in the 50/50 chance that a bus will hit you, and the same again for a truck, and its far more sensible to stay where you are.

So that only gives me a 25% chance of surviving a road crossing. Think I'll take your advice and stay at home! What are the chances of my house burning down? Must be 50/50 (either it's on fire or it's not on fire!)

I'm doomed!!!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So that only gives me a 25% chance of surviving a road crossing. Think I'll take your advice and stay at home! What are the chances of my house burning down? Must be 50/50 (either it's on fire or it's not on fire!)

I'm doomed!!!

What about the chances of dying itself? Must be 50/50? Doh.

 

[BensGrandad]

What about the chances of dying itself? Must be 50/50? Doh.

Dont know about that but I read that if you are over 60 years old and do the lottery you stand more chance of dying before the draw than winning the jackpot.