Park & Ride - Any Suggestions?

[Lammy]

No, but I am.

Clearly the best location. And undoubtedly if the time, money and energy that has gone into the Falmer application had been devoted to pressing the case for Waterhall we would have a good chance of being further ahead than we are now.

Err no we wouldn't it's a total and utter non starter and not even worth discussing anymore. It has been done to death on here. Everyone knows it is the best site and EVERYONE (except you) knows that it won't and would never happen.

end of.

 

[FG aka Football Genius.]

Uncle Buck,

Thats the whole point in a way look at the Swindon game how many car regs needed moving that included BHA in the reg plate? no one takes a blind bit of notice of the exclusion zone anyway they just stop and wave to ythe spotty little boys in orange jackets that stand on the street corners its a joke it always was but no reason why we cant make that amendment they could at least TRY.

FG

 

[Uncle Buck]

Uncle Buck,

Thats the whole point in a way look at the Swindon game how many car regs needed moving that included BHA in the reg plate? no one takes a blind bit of notice of the exclusion zone anyway they just stop and wave to ythe spotty little boys in orange jackets that stand on the street corners its a joke it always was but no reason why we cant make that amendment they could at least TRY.

FG

But as stated earlier the application was approved on the basis of a P&R site being found. We would have to submitt a new planning application which would hold the whole thing up again. Part of the Withdean conditions is no parking at the ground and so finding alternative ways of shipping people to the ground. Your suggestion will not work as you are relying on trust and no planning officer will accept that.

 

[Titanic]

Which is why buses from further out of town seem like a good option to me! It would create only a small demand for parking at the collection points - say in Horsham's park and ride at the Hop Oast on the A24 at Southwater.

 

[Lammy]

Uncle Buck,

Thats the whole point in a way look at the Swindon game how many car regs needed moving that included BHA in the reg plate? no one takes a blind bit of notice of the exclusion zone anyway they just stop and wave to ythe spotty little boys in orange jackets that stand on the street corners its a joke it always was but no reason why we cant make that amendment they could at least TRY.

FG

This also rely's on people LIKE YOU not to flout the parking restrictions. Unfortunately because you better than everyone else you choose to ignore these rules you have effectively f***ed up your own idea!

nice one!

 

[FG aka Football Genius.]

no i have not Lammy and theres nothing stopping an amendment or tabling and additional motion as stated above by me. Also yes the no parking in zone is taken on trust so why not extend that you cant have it both ways. Also Titanic is right though id suggest sumwear a bit nearer than Southwater. Why not ask anyone buying a ticket klike do Season tick holder of their car reg so if they flout the rules they dont get any more tickets (opf corse this is cr@p like noones gonna tell club their real reg etc but then THATS WHAT THEY ARE RELIANY ON NOW ANYWAY!!!!)

for F**** sake get Stevie WOnder on Board of Directors

 

[Lord Bracknell]

What money do the club have in the kitty to spend on this ... would they only offer the £2 (?) per head voucher. If so, is £120 enough to run a bus to and from Horsham for example?? How much would they need to offer the bus operators to make it viable ?

Unfortunately £120 isn't enough. Since the bus would be idle in Brighton for the duration of the game, the bus company would have to cover the wage costs of the driver for about six hours (say 1pm to 7pm). Plus fuel and other running costs. Most bus companies would be looking to earn at least £250 a day for putting a vehicle out on the road. Some of them charge that sort of sum for providing no more than a return journey to a school.

Incidentally, Stagecoach already run a bus from Horsham to Brighton (route 17). Leave Horsham Bus Station at 1.30, get to Withdean at about 2.25pm; return home on a bus that passes Withdean at about 5.25pm. There's nothing suitable for evening kick-offs, though, and your travel voucher isn't valid for most of the journey.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Are people aware that the City Council undertake periodic checks of parking in the exclusion zone? And that the discovery of more parked vehicles than those that are found on non-match days results in the Club having to pay a substantial "fine"?

These are the conditions on which we got planning permission to use Withdean in the first place.

Personally, I'd rather the money was spent on players.

 

[Titanic]

Unfortunately £120 isn't enough. Since the bus would be idle in Brighton for the duration of the game, the bus company would have to cover the wage costs of the driver for about six hours (say 1pm to 7pm). Plus fuel and other running costs. Most bus companies would be looking to earn at least £250 a day for putting a vehicle out on the road. Some of them charge that sort of sum for providing no more than a return journey to a school.

Incidentally, Stagecoach already run a bus from Horsham to Brighton (route 17). Leave Horsham Bus Station at 1.30, get to Withdean at about 2.25pm; return home on a bus that passes Withdean at about 5.25pm. There's nothing suitable for evening kick-offs, though, and your travel voucher isn't valid for most of the journey.

Horsham Bus station is useless for a 'park and ride' starting point! There is no longterm parking nearby - you are already encouraged to 'park and ride' to get into Horsham on a Saturday (from the Hop Oast on the A24).

OK so how much would the club need to spend on a 'local' park and ride - and could that money be more usefully directed to subsidise buses from out of town ??

I'm just curious about the economics of a 200 car park and ride option locally... against a more widespread bus service.

 

[FG aka Football Genius.]

excuses excuses excuses the most important thing the club have now is holding onto the momentum of cardifff and getting these extra seats in at whatever cost (else they'll have Falmer and no bums to sit on the extra seats) The end. its thats simple so no Lord B this is far more important than wasting the money on players like David Lee!!!!!!!!!

 

[Titanic]

Are people aware that the City Council undertake periodic checks of parking in the exclusion zone? And that the discovery of more parked vehicles than those that are found on non-match days results in the Club having to pay a substantial "fine"?

These are the conditions on which we got planning permission to use Withdean in the first place.

Personally, I'd rather the money was spent on players.

Do you know if we have had to pay a fine in previous years... or this year ? and if so, how much ?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Horsham Bus station is useless for a 'park and ride' starting point!

But Henfield might be a good place to park and catch the number 17 bus. It's less than 20 minutes from Withdean.

As to the general economics of p&r for 200 cars ...

200 cars will deliver about 450 people (about six double deckers full). After the match, three buses will be enough to get people back to their cars with double running (provided the car park is not much more than 10 minutes from Withdean). Before the game, the same three buses can each provide three runs to the Stadium, allowing ten minutes between departure times over a ninety minute period before the game.

450 travel vouchers (@£2 a go) give enough revenue to cover the costs.

Put the car park twenty minutes from the stadium and you'll need more buses or you'll have to provide a less frequent service, with unacceptable delays after the game. The economics start to fall apart.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

excuses excuses excuses the most important thing the club have now is holding onto the momentum of cardifff and getting these extra seats in at whatever cost (else they'll have Falmer and no bums to sit on the extra seats) The end. its thats simple so no Lord B this is far more important than wasting the money on players like David Lee!!!!!!!!!

I actually agree with some of this. It's just the details that you've got wrong, FG.

In my opinion, the City Council should be doing something to help solve the problem. Councill Gill Mitchell promised that they would, after the Environment Committee failed to deal with the Carden Avenue traffic regulation order. Her problem, of course, is that Labour no longer has a majority on the council.

 

[Titanic]

Thanks LB - as usual facts and figures always help to keep the debate sensible.

However, if the council don't come up with a local site, although this option costs more - should it be ruled out, when weighed against the benefits of 2000 extra supporters being able to get to matches at Withdean ?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

... if the council don't come up with a local site, although this option costs more - should it be ruled out, when weighed against the benefits of 2000 extra supporters being able to get to matches at Withdean ?

That's where I agree with FG. We need to look at the bigger picture and maintain the momentum that Cardiff has given the Club - even if this costs a bit of money.

As Gordon Strachan more or less said on Sky TV - a club that looks like it's making progress can go to the bank and borrow money much more easily than a club that is in desperate decline.

 

[teaboy]

How does the Asda Free bus work, economically? Would a 'hail and ride' system from mid-Sussex work?

If there are, for example, 5 pick-ups en-route to Withdean this reduces the need for a large park and ride site. Supporters could catch an Albion special from a variety of places. This could cut out the need for car use altogether in some cases.

Any thoughts?

 

[sully]

Sounds to me like Hickstead is the best suggestion on here so far.

The only problem is that many will just drive past it and try to use Mill Road.

It's becoming clear why this has proved so difficult to solve.

How about a limited area of "Grasscrete" at Waterhall? At least that would reduce the wet weather problems. The overflow carpark at Wakehurst is a good example of this sort of arrangement (but they close it when it gets dark!).

Lighting is obviously an issue, but not insurmountable.

200 cars = approximately 4,500m² of car park.
£200,000 should sort it.

Forget it!

 

[Paddy B]

I agree that Hickstead seems the most suitable soloution, as I would assume most supporters woud arrive via A23, particulary away fans.

Maybe this P & R could be away fans only?

All this is hypothetical of course, as the All England Showjumping Club may not wish to have hundreds of Millwall fans on their land.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Hickstead to Withdean would take about 20 minutes on the bus.

Assuming there are 450 people wanting to catch the bus after the game, you'd need six double deck buses to provide the service, because none of the vehicles would be able to do a double run (unless people were prepared to wait for 40 minutes - which I doubt).

It would be an expensive service to provide. There is also the problem that most potential users travelling down the A23 would probably carry on past Hickstead and try to get to Mill Road. What would happen when Mill Road fills up? Would people turn round and go back to Hickstead? Would people have the 45 minutes available to:-
i) work out that they had to do that;
ii) drive to Hickstead;
iii) park and board the bus;
iv) travel to Withdean.

?

It might work for away supporters coming from the north. But we'd have to make sure that they knew that they couldn't use Mill Road.




If a site could be found that's about 10 minutes from the ground, the service could be provided with only three vehicles, including double running and only a 20 minute wait for the second flotilla of buses.

 

[Colbourne Kid]

Lord B has covered most of this but to sum up.

The planning consent relies on a s.106 agreement that forces the Club to have a 'sustainable travel plan' which includes buses, trains, park and ride and cycle. The Club are required to hit a certain percentage or they are fined. Similarly, the council surveys all the surrounding streets and the Club is fined if more than 10% extra parking is taking place.

FGs suggestions just don't add up to a scheme that would be approved by the Director at the Council.

To meet the extra travel demand with the extra 2000 seats even allowing for extra people using buses and trains requires at least another 200 park and ride places. Mill Road is currently full most matches so cannot accommodate any more.

If you look at my original post there were some conditions attacjed to a workable site. Waterhall has no hardstanding (the roads are too narrow to allow parking and buses) and no lighting each of these will require planning consent in an AONB. My guess would be objections and an Inquiry so would not work for next season or proabbly the next ten seasons.

Hickstead is an interesting suggestion and has been looked at together with the Friday Ad site next door. However, tests on travel times on match days mean a return journey of about 40 minutes which means all the people would have to be got away on one run of buses the game. The estimates are that more than 200 cars would use Hickstead and that 10/12 buses would be required. With Mill Road and Mithras still operating this would mean supplying 24 buses on match days for park and ride. Uneconomic and probably unattainable for B & H buses. Don't forget each bus needs a driver.

Re buses for areas around Sussex. This might be a solution the Club will go for at some stage but only with a thrid park and ride so that buses could be given two jobs (bus route and park and ride delivery). The Club is currently looking at this for Peacehaven but there are problems. Places on the buses would need to be pre-allocated otherwise fans could turn up to use the bus and find it full. If they have walked from home, what do they do then? There will be no time for a second run. The second problem is cost. Lord B is on the conservative side when he talks about £250 per bus. When the train problems were on and the Club put on buses from Haywards Heath some of those cost £480 for the day. Even at £250 that is around £5 per peron to get them to the game and home again. Each bus would have to be stewarded adding extra cost.

The only solution that the Club can find after three years of looking is Carden Avenue. Unless any of you can find another possible site. Post them on here. If the Club have looked at the site, I will post what the Club has done to look at the site and why it does or does not fit the criteria.