OT......Auswitz Birkenau Tour.......

[seagully]

can I recommend this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...-1441251?v=glance&n=266239&s=gateway&v=glance

Thanks, I may have to order that book. As well as looking an interesting read, it may help with my dissertation too which is always a bonus!

 

[Publius Ovidius]

as i said, read up on the madagascar Project. It will go somewhere to explain the current thinking and attitude of the state of isreal.

 

[seagully]

can I recommend this

It also explains why the Jews were displaced and also The Madagascar Project, which had been talked about in the British parliament at the time

I never knew that was discussed in Parliament. Was the British government in favour of it then?

 

[Publius Ovidius]

The consensus of opinion was that although the British Government would put in a tacit objection on humanitarian grounds, as the French who colonised madagascar had agreed in principle that the island could be used, as the French were our allies, we would not be in a position to object.

The Poles and Chec governments had drafted proposals and it was seen as the perfect solution for the germans as they needed land and houses, industry etc for the returning "Deutchevolk" and only when the plan was deemed impossible was the "final solution" muted.

 

[seagully]

The consensus of opinion was that although the British Government would put in a tacit objection on humanitarian grounds, as the French who colonised madagascar had agreed in principle that the island could be used, as the French were our allies, we would not be in a position to object.

The Poles and Chec governments had drafted proposals and it was seen as the perfect solution for the germans as they needed land and houses, industry etc for the returning "Deutchevolk" and only when the plan was deemed impossible was the "final solution" muted.

That's terrible but hardly surprising. An example of 'realpolitik' at its finest from the British government. As I understand it, the war in the Mediterranean and North Africa was the main stumbling block with the Madagascar thing, and the competition between Nazi leadership 'barons' led to the spiralling out of control of policy towards the Jews.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

it does explain it very well in the book. If you dont want to buy it, let me know and i could lend it you.

I see you are in battle - we are playing cricket against battle in lewes on Saturday - if you know any of the battle players i could bring it along.

PM me if you want it.

 

[seagully]

Thanks for the offer mate, appreciate it, but don't really know anyone in the cricket team that well. I think I'm gonna buy the book, looks really good and its pretty cheap!

Good luck in the cricket!

 

[unnameable]

I went to Auschwitz-Birkenau on May 14th, 2006, during my visit to Krakow.

 

[Man of Harveys]

Why didn't the Allies bomb the railway lines to the concentration camps? I remember reading that a prominent British Jew committed suicide during the war in frustration at the lack of such action, despite the clear evidence that was available from reconnaissance as to what these sites were being used for?

 

[seagully]

Why didn't the Allies bomb the railway lines to the concentration camps? I remember reading that a prominent British Jew committed suicide during the war in frustration at the lack of such action, despite the clear evidence that was available from reconnaissance as to what these sites were being used for?

The Allied High Command didn't deem it worthwile to divert resources from other bombing campaigns and thought it would be too risky a mission, despite evidence of what was going on in the camps

 

[graz126]

i did the tour around auszwitch and birkenau in about 1999, the size of the place did suprise me a little. and i thought the atmosphere around the whole town was dark and sombre. it certainly makes you think a little.

 

[Cian]

Intended to do it when I was touring round europe, but ran too short of time on my interrail ticket to do much more in Germany than head straight home

Feel its something I have to see in Europe. That and The Somme.

 

[Man of Harveys]

The Allied High Command didn't deem it worthwile to divert resources from other bombing campaigns and thought it would be too risky a mission, despite evidence of what was going on in the camps

Are you sure it's that clear-cut? If you travel around Germany, say, they bombed everywhere - I'm not bothered here about the debate as to the rights and wrongs of that - but when you see, say, the ancient university towns they bombed, for example, I think it's a tough call to say nothing could have been diverted to bombing the death camps, as apparently the prisoners bravely wanted them to, despite the danger this posed to them.

This: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...-6525263?v=glance&n=266239&s=gateway&v=glance
...looks very good on the subject.

"The book details a number of British newspaper headlines and extensive reports, some of which follow;-

"Nazis murder 700,000 Jews in Poland". - Daily Telegraph, 25 June 1942, which also included a follow up report under the heading "Travelling Gas Chambers".
Additionally, the following reports were published publically on 30 June 1942;
"Massacre of Jews - Over 1,000,000 have died since the war began". - The Times.
"Greatest pogrom - one million Jews die". - Daily Mail."

 

[seagully]

Are you sure it's that clear-cut? If you travel around Germany, say, they bombed everywhere - I'm not bothered here about the debate as to the rights and wrongs of that - but when you see, say, the ancient university towns they bombed, for example, I think it's a tough call to say nothing could have been diverted to bombing the death camps, as apparently the prisoners bravely wanted them to, despite the danger this posed to them.

This: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...-6525263?v=glance&n=266239&s=gateway&v=glance
...looks very good on the subject.

"The book details a number of British newspaper headlines and extensive reports, some of which follow;-

"Nazis murder 700,000 Jews in Poland". - Daily Telegraph, 25 June 1942, which also included a follow up report under the heading "Travelling Gas Chambers".
Additionally, the following reports were published publically on 30 June 1942;
"Massacre of Jews - Over 1,000,000 have died since the war began". - The Times.
"Greatest pogrom - one million Jews die". - Daily Mail."

If you think about it from a purely non-ideological military sense, there was no need for the Allies to divert resources as it would not gain any tactical advantage. Obviously I'm not condoning this point of view but I believe that was the reason behind it

 

[Publius Ovidius]

that is how I understood it and how the guide around the camp explained it

 

[seagully]

Intended to do it when I was touring round europe, but ran too short of time on my interrail ticket to do much more in Germany than head straight home

Feel its something I have to see in Europe. That and The Somme.

I've been to the Somme and looked around the graveyards. Let me tell you that its an extremely sobering and thought-provoking experience. Would recommend it. Also saw the German graveyards just down the road from the British ones which was half the size but contained twice as many bodies. After the war, the French and Belgian soldiers just dumped them in mass graves.

 

[Northstander]

The reason the Allies didnt bomb was that the railways can rebuilt within weeks, whats the point?

From the allies point of view they were advancing through Europe and days were numbered for the Nazi's.

The war effort had to go towards that and get the war over with and finished.

What would have been the reaction if they allies decided to bomb the gas chambers, missed and killed hundreds or thousands of Jews?

In my opinion there would have been Outrage!

 

[Icy Gull]

I've been to the Somme and looked around the graveyards. Let me tell you that its an extremely sobering and thought-provoking experience. Would recommend it. Also saw the German graveyards just down the road from the British ones which was half the size but contained twice as many bodies. After the war, the French and Belgian soldiers just dumped them in mass graves.

I took a tour a 40 year rememberence tour to El Alamein in the eighties, including a large contingent from St Dunstan's and had to find and read gravestones to one of them, very moving and shocking as the average age seemed to be about 19. Very upsetting listening to stories of the guys he had known who were bureid there.

 

[H block]

I find it interesting that we have a thread about this and another thread dehumanising Gypsies at the same time. Sadly it illustrates to me just how easy it is to set up the conditions which create such appalling places as the concentration camps of central europe.

If we were in the middle of a recession I think we could be one charismatic leader away from a really extreme government. O.K. there would not be economic migration from eastern Europe because of lack of jobs but I definetly feel a strong move to xenophobia amongst people when you discuss anything from refugees to moslems.