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O/T - FT article about Greece's problems....



larus

Well-known member
Interesting article about the problems which Greece faces in the short to medium term by Martin Wolfe....

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The Greek government has promised to slash its fiscal deficit from an estimated 12.7 per cent of gross domestic product last year to 3 per cent in 2012. Is it plausible that this will happen? Not very. But Greece is merely the canary in the fiscal coal mine. Other eurozone members are also under pressure to slash fiscal deficits. What might such pressure do to vulnerable members, to the eurozone and to the world economy?

Having falsified its figures for years, violating the trust of its partners, Greece is in the doghouse. Yet, even if it bears much of the blame, the task it is undertaking is huge. In particular, unlike most countries with massive fiscal deficits – the UK, for example – Greece cannot offset the impact of fiscal tightening by loosening monetary policy or depreciating its currency.

Greece is a member of a currency union that has the tightest monetary policy of any large economy (see chart), as Paul de Grauwe of Leuven university pointed out in the FT this week. According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, eurozone real final domestic demand will stagnate in 2010. Germany’s is forecast to grow by 0.2 per cent.

The euro has also strengthened by more in real terms since its launch in 1999 than any other leading currency. To add insult to injury, Greece and the other peripheral countries have lost competitiveness within the zone. On one measure, Greek unit labour costs rose by 23 per cent against Germany’s between early 2000 and the second quarter of 2009. This is in line with the experience of other peripheral members.

Finally, even if fiscal tightening were to lower spreads on Greek bonds over German bunds – a measure of Greece’s default risk – the benefit for the public finances and the economy would not be large. True, early this week, the Greek spread over bunds was as big as 2.74 percentage points. But spreads have only been wide for two years. The impact of lower public sector interest rates on rates paid by the private sector is also likely to be quite small.

Given these tight constraints, a big structural fiscal tightening will generate a deep recession. That is sure to increase the cyclical deficit. Assume, cautiously, that for every percentage point of structural tightening there would be 0.2 points of offsetting fiscal deterioration. Then the structural tightening needed to reduce the actual deficit to 3 per cent of GDP would be close to 12 percentage points. The Greek government would find that, for every step it takes forward, it would slip a bit backwards. So far Greece has not suffered a significant recession. That seems sure to change. The government will soon be facing miserable public and private sectors, with no policy levers.

The problems of Greece are extreme, because it alone of the vulnerable eurozone member countries has both high fiscal deficits and high debt. Other countries with large fiscal deficits are Ireland (12.2 per cent of GDP in 2009) and Spain (9.6 per cent). But, while net public borrowing was 86 per cent of GDP at the end of 2009 in Greece, according to the OECD, in Ireland and Spain it was only 25 and 33 per cent, respectively. Meanwhile, Italy, with a net debt ratio of 97 per cent, had a deficit of “only” 5.5 per cent. Portugal is in the middle, with net debt of 56 per cent of GDP and a deficit of 6.7 per cent of GDP. Thus, the challenge for Greece is larger and more urgent than for the others.

In an article in the FT last week, Desmond Lachman of the American Enterprise Institute concluded that Greece will be forced to leave the eurozone. Simon Tilford of the Centre for European Reform in London argued on these pages that it must be bailed out, instead. There are two other possibilities: Greece toughs it out; or Greece just defaults.

Which is most likely? I do not know. But default cannot be a solution. Greece would then be forced to close its deficit in the midst of a national economic debacle. Leaving the eurozone would be a political catastrophe. Either of these eventualities (let alone both together) would also create lethal contagion for vulnerable members. Suddenly, the unthinkable would be thinkable. The eurozone could then confront a wave of sovereign debt and financial sector crises that would make what happened in 2009 look like a party.

At the same time, a bail-out by the eurozone as a whole would create a monstrous moral hazard for politicians. It would only be possible if the eurozone subsequently exercised a degree of direct control over the fiscal decisions of member states. It would, in short, be the fastest route to the political union that many initially believed was a necessary condition for success.

Given the horrendous difficulty of all alternatives, I am sure the effort will be made to tough it out for as long as possible. That will also be the case elsewhere. All will be forced to accept lengthy recessions. But in the absence of either strong demand elsewhere in the eurozone or a weaker exchange rate, both of which depend on decisions by the European Central Bank, the competitive disinflation route to prosperity seems highly likely to fail. Some countries may find themselves stuck in long-term stagnation.

Meanwhile, the eurozone as a whole, having lost its erstwhile internal demand engines, must now hope for faster growth of net exports. So do countries hit by the financial shock, such as the UK and US. So, too, does recession-hit Japan. So, not least, does China. Either the rest of the world has a spending binge, or these countries – which make up 70 per cent of the world economy – are going to be disappointed.

Some, knowing of my opposition to UK membership of the eurozone, may suppose that I find some pleasure in these looming difficulties. On the contrary, I fear the dangerous consequences. But these are certainly the sorts of difficulties that have worried me. Most of the time having an independent currency is nothing but a nuisance. But every so often and quite unpredictably, countries desperately need a safety valve. As Prof de Grauwe reminds us, the 1930s were a time when such relief was needed. Our own era is posing what look like similar challenges. Stuff does, indeed, happen. Having willed the creation of the euro, its members must overcome the difficulties that arise when, as now, stuff happens.
 




bhafc99

Well-known member
Oct 14, 2003
7,339
Dubai
How badly did he want to slip "shit" past the subs in the last two sentences? But there they are, with the electronic equivalent of a red pen, inserting "stuff" in its stead...
 


Hunting 784561

New member
Jul 8, 2003
3,651
The Euro will continue with or without Greece, but it is going to be tested. There was always going to be a problem matching the economic cycle of the northern European countries with their southern European cousins, but that doesnt suddenly mean that the Euro was a bad idea.

I notice that The Daily Telegraph has been in overdrive recently at the prospect of the wheels falling off the Eurozone wagon - but its really not going to happen.
 


Bevendean Hillbilly

New member
Sep 4, 2006
12,805
Nestling in green nowhere
It has long been a source of bewilderment to me that countries like Greece and Portugal have gone along so nicely for so long with a very loose interpretation of what constitutes work ethic and adherence to rules. what significant export/infrastructure do these tin-pot countries have that would allow them to compete with other developed economies? tourism? olives? dodgy red wine? surely there is a crisis looming for the Euro as long as their economies are tied to it.
 


larus

Well-known member
It has long been a source of bewilderment to me that countries like Greece and Portugal have gone along so nicely for so long with a very loose interpretation of what constitutes work ethic and adherence to rules. what significant export/infrastructure do these tin-pot countries have that would allow them to compete with other developed economies? tourism? olives? dodgy red wine? surely there is a crisis looming for the Euro as long as their economies are tied to it.


I could never see how you can have economic union without a political union, and hence loss of sovereignity. I wouldn't be surprised to see a real crisis develop over the next year or so.
 




Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
There's also a really good article in the Spectator this week where they argue letting Greece go bankrupt. They lied about their economy to satisfy the criteria for Euro membership and should lay the consequences - so the article goes.
 


The Greeks will most likely tough it out. There have to be severe fiscal spending cuts there, as in Ireland (only more severe). If it does default, a bailout will come from the ECB, although as the article spells out that would also be a precursor to a truly integrated eurozone as the Germans French et al would not accept a strings-free bailout from their pockets.
 


I think the euro was a bad idea.

Even when the EC consisted of less countries they were still different. They were in different stages of economic cycles, some countries doing well and some not.

To impose a common currency and, more importantly, a common interst rate was, IMO, a classic case of Governments trying to solve a problem that didn't exist.

What was the problem of multiple currencies? The cost of changing from one to the other both for businesses and for tourists.

Big deal. If you went on holiday from France to Germany, or if you were a Polish factory buying parts from Germany you had to pay bank charges to buy German marks.

So what? These costs were not very big and were reasonably transparent and could be reduced with the proper planning.

Now we have the problem where a country that has a problem and needs to raise or lower interest rates for economic reasons can't do so.

A country that needs to attract foreign investment and therefore wishes to offer higher interest rates can't do so.

A country that has a currency that is to high and wants to devalue can't do so.

Europe is not, never has been, and never will be a single market. It is made up of lots of different markets and a one size fits all currency and interest rate policy made no sense at all.

Even more so now with the extended group of countries that make up the organisation.

And I dread to even think how much dumping all the currencies and and switching to the euro cost, both in terms of the actual cost plus the hidden cost - such as loads of people with outgoing currencies under the mattress buying up properties abd companies *miscalculating* and rounding up the new euro prices. Not to mention the hoards of bureaucrats needed to oversee the whole thing.

Madness, I tell 'e, madness!
 




Mellor 3 Ward 4

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2004
10,115
saaf of the water
I think the euro was a bad idea.


Now we have the problem where a country that has a problem and needs to raise or lower interest rates for economic reasons can't do so.


QUOTE]

That, IMO, is much more of a problem than a single currency - a single interest rate across Europe.

What France/Germany need in the way of interest rates is not what Spain, Greece and Ireland need at the moment.
 


Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
31,093
"We're on the RHODES to nowhere!"...
 


I think the euro was a bad idea.


Now we have the problem where a country that has a problem and needs to raise or lower interest rates for economic reasons can't do so.


QUOTE]

That, IMO, is much more of a problem than a single currency - a single interest rate across Europe.

What France/Germany need in the way of interest rates is not what Spain, Greece and Ireland need at the moment.

Exactamente.
 




User removed 4

New member
May 9, 2008
13,331
Haywards Heath
It has long been a source of bewilderment to me that countries like Greece and Portugal have gone along so nicely for so long with a very loose interpretation of what constitutes work ethic and adherence to rules. what significant export/infrastructure do these tin-pot countries have that would allow them to compete with other developed economies? tourism? olives? dodgy red wine? surely there is a crisis looming for the Euro as long as their economies are tied to it.
you say that , but it was france and germany that first broke the terms of the stability pact that was designed to limit the gdp/debt ratio.
 


That, IMO, is much more of a problem than a single currency - a single interest rate across Europe.

What France/Germany need in the way of interest rates is not what Spain, Greece and Ireland need at the moment.

But the idea is that it encourages convergence. Yes it isn't perfect, but the idea is that it does create a single market. There is much more of a single market now than there ever has been in the past, and convergence has been happening. Naturally a global recession has set that back, but it will come again in time.

You are never going to please all of the people all of the time. Often in the UK the interest rates are set to the advantage of London and the greater South East, but are not what are needed to tackle the issues in the North West. Such is the nature of any political union of any size.
 


Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,791
Surrey
I could never see how you can have economic union without a political union, and hence loss of sovereignity. I wouldn't be surprised to see a real crisis develop over the next year or so.
I was pro us joining the Euro en it first happened but have since altered my opinon to the extent that I am quite pleased we have control of our own currency via an independent central bank.

However I do think the next five years really are the litmus test for the currency. If they can pull through this period witout ceding sovereignty, maybe the reasons for staying independent become less convincing. That said, our economy is still structured very differently from other European countries owing to our mortgage culture.
 




Robbie G

New member
Jul 26, 2004
1,771
Hassocks
One problem Europe has is that it's labour mobility (i.e. people moving from one country to another to find jobs) is relatively low compared to that of the US for example. Plus the fact that, as said before, the countries don't all have similar business cycles.
 


Chicken Runner61

We stand where we want!
May 20, 2007
4,609
I'm all for having close (even closer) ties with our european neigbours however far away and I am pro europe for loads of reasons but...........

The thing I have learnt is that Europe and the EU leads us closer to globalisation and big business seems to be able to manipulate EU regs and parliment to control the population.

I also don't like the way that EU laws don't allow you to restrict immigration from within the EU. We seem to have forgotten that you can have left wing freedom and working rights but run closed borders immigration policy.

We need to get back to a trading and military group of EU countries rather than the large political and commercial machine being created.

I think that big corporate bodies use the EU to manipulate countries into single organisations that they can deal with in one hit. They want three units The EU with the Euro, USA Canada & Mexico with the Amero and China, Japan & Korea with an asian version of currency.
 


Don Quixote

Well-known member
Nov 4, 2008
8,362
The Euro zone should have been France, Germany, Italy, UK and the low countries. Maybe Spain. The others just don't have enough finacial ability to make any difference.
 


Chicken Runner61

We stand where we want!
May 20, 2007
4,609
The Euro zone should have been France, Germany, Italy, UK and the low countries. Maybe Spain. The others just don't have enough finacial ability to make any difference.

Wasn't that the whole idea about the EU though?

The plan was to group together to buy enough goods at a reasonable price (wheat eg) to make sure the USA, China & USSR (as was) couldn't out bid us for the lot.

Also I was led to believe Turkey will have a bigger economy that us soon.
 


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